scotball
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Favourite Team: Glasgow Rocks
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Post by scotball on Mar 21, 2020 21:56:39 GMT
Following from Hersey's comment regarding a "BBL2", I thought I would ask some questions / gauge opinion as to that league's viability. Personally, my interest in the NBL has increased massively in recent years, and there are some really well run clubs, and some really talented which could improve off-court, in the league. A BBL2 / proper NBL Conference-style league with the best clubs would seem to be the logical next step to improve the standard of the "league system" and these clubs.
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Is there the expertise and desire for potential clubs to set this up for themselves? Could/would they breakaway in a similar fashion to the BBL itself?
Would such a league require the BBL's involvement? What would an official tie-up with the BBL bring that going alone wouldn't? Would the clubs still breakaway if they knew a BBL tie-up was definitely not an option?
Do the clubs that would likely be involved currently generate enough money to contribute towards central administration of such a league each season? How little could this be done for properly?
Based on such a league being mainly D1 clubs initially, would that group of clubs be open to applications for lower division teams with the right off-court setups, and accept a couple of years to let these teams get up to speed on the court? I think of teams like Teesside Lions, who seem to getting it right off the court, but are currently a way of the standard of D1.
Would it work financially? How could the way money is spend / brought in right now be changed to maximize profitability for clubs?
Is there any prospect of BE taking a serious interest in improving the off court standard of clubs in its leagues in the near future?
Based on the above (or anything else for that matter), what is the single biggest issue preventing such a league forming? (notwithstanding coronavirus)
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Any contributions to the above would be much appreciated!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 9:30:29 GMT
Don't think it's viable due to infrastructure and lack of interest from general public, sponsorship and television here.
It's hard enough to try get people interested in the BBL without even more clubs vying for deals. Focus on improving the structure we have now rather than trying to expand it outwards.
Besides, the BBL is "owned by" the club's themselves, they buy in and are eligible to dividends when one day there hopefully are some to take. You'd need to do the same for these teams and that's a big chunk of money to come up with when they're trying to gain sponsorships deals through volunteers working on it.
There's no real need for expansion. We're a small country and a 12 team league is perfectly acceptable. We only want to make it bigger because we're spoilt for choice when it comes to football teams. Instead look at the Australian basketball league - they only have nine teams but are really respected and people give a ****
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 11:37:47 GMT
Following from Hersey's comment regarding a "BBL2", I thought I would ask some questions / gauge opinion as to that league's viability. Personally, my interest in the NBL has increased massively in recent years, and there are some really well run clubs, and some really talented which could improve off-court, in the league. A BBL2 / proper NBL Conference-style league with the best clubs would seem to be the logical next step to improve the standard of the "league system" and these clubs. -------------------------------------- Is there the expertise and desire for potential clubs to set this up for themselves? Could/would they breakaway in a similar fashion to the BBL itself? I think if it was going to happen, it would've happened by now. While everyone is (appears to be) utterly disallusioned with BE, no one's made the move the do itWould such a league require the BBL's involvement? What would an official tie-up with the BBL bring that going alone wouldn't? Would the clubs still breakaway if they knew a BBL tie-up was definitely not an option? I can't see it happening without BBL involvement. The women made efforts to improe their league but it never really took off until it became the WBBL.Do the clubs that would likely be involved currently generate enough money to contribute towards central administration of such a league each season? How little could this be done for properly? Probably not to start with. Although with an organisation already there, i doubt the costs would be huge. Based on such a league being mainly D1 clubs initially, would that group of clubs be open to applications for lower division teams with the right off-court setups, and accept a couple of years to let these teams get up to speed on the court? I think of teams like Teesside Lions, who seem to getting it right off the court, but are currently a way of the standard of D1. That's the kind of question that can only be answered when there's actually a league in place. Personally I wouldn't be against it if they had the money to recruit a D1 team, proper business plans, finance etc. Not a repeat of the cretin at Dagenham who was going to be in the BBL within five years but lasted a year at local league level followed by a season in D4.Would it work financially? How could the way money is spend / brought in right now be changed to maximize profitability for clubs? The $64million question. What would a BBL II bring to the existing competition and what would it bring to its new clubs? Is there any prospect of BE taking a serious interest in improving the off court standard of clubs in its leagues in the near future? Absolutely not. They have zero interest in promoting/improving pro basketball. They often refer to amateur basketball when telling us how they're working tirelessly to improve the game. They have no interest in treating the clubs in the top division any differently to those in Division Three South West. I know i bang on about the National Trophy being discontinued, but it's pretty clear that the was a will from D1 clubs for it to continue but BE didn't want the hassle of staging a final, so it's gone.
If eight or so clubs from D1 left to join BBL II I doubt BE would give a damn. From the evidence of what happened when WBBL was formed I think they might even welcome it, they could get on with running the amateur game. And that might be the best for everyone Based on the above (or anything else for that matter), what is the single biggest issue preventing such a league forming? (notwithstanding coronavirus) There's no sign of will from the current BBL, and i get that, For an individual BBL club there's no real benefit, for the sake of the game in this country i believe it would be good. 20 pro clubs (whatever the definition of pro is, because the BBL isn't a full-time league) should be sustainable. But can you see clubs voting for this if they think it could lead to automatic promotion/relegation? Membership to BBL II would have to be on a licence basis because the current BBL clubs won't want to see their franchise fee effectively disappear.
It's good to talk - Christ knows I have time at the moment - but unfortunately i can't see it ever happening.-------------------------------------- Any contributions to the above would be much appreciated!Apologies for the formatting, had a bit of a mare. |
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Post by youngrocks on Mar 22, 2020 12:25:47 GMT
Until there is an united voice within basketball it'll always remain in the same position. I said it on the thread to do with players union or wherever that was but if the players really cared it would be set up. For every individual with the desire to improve all aspects of the sport their is someone who is just happy with the status quo.
I sometimes feel some british players feel entitled. Above where they are and too good to do the ground works to promote the sport. BE BS BW should only have remits for their counties. The fact they could and did change the governance of the sport is madness.
I believe the league would be best with 16 teams. 15 home and away games in the league.
The cup a straight knock out competition
The trophy a 4team 4 division with the top team in each group going to a final 4.
Playoffs best of 3. Still top 8 qualify
Seems alot of games. The trophy wouldnt have to be home and away could just be a 3 game shoot out
A minimum 32 game season for a team not progressing in any competition
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 12:30:53 GMT
This pandemic looks like being a 12 month to 18 month situation before things even start looking anywhere near normal
Many pro sports clubs will go bust. It's inevitable. They will have no income and only costs. They can try mothballing as much as possible but debts will build up that they would never be able to afford to pay off.
The non pro basketball clubs in GB will come out of this stronger and better than the pro ones in comparison as they can reduce their ongoing costs to close to zero
And when the clubs emerge fans will be waiting to support whatever is left
But the leagues themselves in the different sports may or may not survive.
I guess it depends exactly how long this all goes on for as to who survive and who do not.
Most pubs, restaurants and hotels will not survive this. The buildings will still be there but the businesses behind them will have failed as the owners can't just rack up debts they will never be able to repay.
Only hope for some hotels is the government pay them to become temporary hospitals.
I say all that because any pro sports club with buildings and stadiums etc to support will just be losing huge amounts of money each day that passes.
They may get help paying staff wages to do nothing but they won't get enough help to cover their other weekly outlay
A friend of mine owns hotels. He reckons he can last 2 months max before he has to liquidate them. These are successful hotels.
And this is someone who's built them up into thriving businesses over 30 years.
Cash is king. And very few businesses can survive without monthly cashflow in.
There's only so many costs you can get rid of.
And the bigger the venue the more costs you CANT get rid of.
Sorry for the ramble
Back to BBL2 - I think whenever basketball starts again just having 12 teams of any kind competing together in any format will be great
For example - I expect I will be able to pay to watch basketball again in our venue in the future
Whether it's Leicester Riders Im watching coached by Rob Paternostro - who knows?
And whether Riders are still running that arena who knows?
We may well have a pro team of some kind but with a different name and new ownership structure. That arena cant just go to waste.
Who's going to pay Rob's wages for 12 months plus for example? And if he can't be paid where does he go and what does he do?
At some stage some club somewhere will pay Rob to coach them in the future. But it may not be riders who have the money left to be able to do it etc.
Sorry to use him as an example - but for him you can insert every other BBL coach and most clubs.
If Lions were in financial turmoil before this - just imagine where they are now?
And I'm sure Vince will be involved in basketball in the future as well. But who knows where he will be and what he will be doing.
Everybody needs to just first of all survive this as an individual. Many businesses won't possibly be able to survive it with them sadly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 13:01:41 GMT
Jeez. I don't suppose we could have a thread in which don't lecture us with another long post about the plague?
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 14:17:09 GMT
My post is relevant to this thread as its hard to predict a BBL League 2 without enough teams to make up BBL League 1.
Albeit I accept I rambled on
Anyway I've just received an email from Newcastle Eagles asking for support at a very difficult time for the club. Which is entirely relevant to this.
[brBut I will post it in another thread rather than this one.
But they are clearly in trouble already
I assume I received the email as I am on their database for buying a brick in their wall
Fingers crossed Eagles can get through this alongside Riders but it's going to take a minor miracle for either or both of them I suspect
(Eagles are having to ask for fans to buy season tickets for next season already in a hope to create some income to survive this) They are also appealing for fans not to ask for refunds for this season or for parties etc booked at the arena and to swap for when they can take place.
The problem is their own fans will have their own hardships to survive. This is a big ask.
I'm sure the Eagles fans will pull together. But this isn't a short term problem we are facing.
Anyway it's in its own thread now
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2NFR
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Post by 2NFR on Mar 22, 2020 16:55:49 GMT
Jeez. I don't suppose we could have a thread in which don't lecture us with another long post about the plague? ...and thats just ASDA on a Friday  but seriously, lets just forget about BBL2 and concentrate on the survival on the BBL and its clubs !! ... Difficult times ahead for all us at the moment  Be well ... Peace  |
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scotball
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Favourite Team: Glasgow Rocks
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Post by scotball on Mar 22, 2020 17:01:05 GMT
Maybe the issue is the name of BBL2.
This isn't supposed to be about the BBL or its clubs.
Its about good clubs in the National League not being served well by the current structure, and asking whether another separate structure for them would better serve their needs and growth, and if such a structure would be possible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 17:29:17 GMT
Maybe the issue is the name of BBL2. This isn't supposed to be about the BBL or its clubs. Its about good clubs in the National League not being served well by the current structure, and asking whether another separate structure for them would better serve their needs and growth, and if such a structure would be possible. They don't want to or can't grow. Solent evidently don't want to as they've built a tiny "arena". Reading want to but have nowhere to play. A different structure isn't going to solve those issues. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 19:52:24 GMT
My post is relevant to this thread as its hard to predict a BBL League 2 without enough teams to make up BBL League 1. And if you'd just said that, you may have had a point. But, as ever, you continue to ramble, preach and go off topic. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 20:10:55 GMT
My post is relevant to this thread as its hard to predict a BBL League 2 without enough teams to make up BBL League 1. And if you'd just said that, you may have had a point. But, as ever, you continue to ramble, preach and go off topic. Worse things happen in life hersey |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 20:18:32 GMT
Yes. Obviously. That doesn't mean you have to bore us $hitless or provide an excuse for doing so.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 20:23:57 GMT
Yes. Obviously. That doesn't mean you have to bore us $hitless or provide an excuse for doing so. Once again I will bite my lip And delete what I just wrote back And instead just say You are way from perfect yourself hersey |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 20:50:43 GMT
Are we just about to kick into the "poor me" routine? If so, and it does lead to another tantrum/flounce, I guess I've achieved something positive today.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 20:56:55 GMT
Maybe the issue is the name of BBL2. This isn't supposed to be about the BBL or its clubs. Its about good clubs in the National League not being served well by the current structure, and asking whether another separate structure for them would better serve their needs and growth, and if such a structure would be possible. I got that. I think if it was going to happen it'd have happened by now. It nearly did about 20 years ago. The NBL teams formed the Conference. It was supposed to be the best of the NBL, just six sides trying to do it properly. But EBBA (as it was) got involved, other clubs whinged and it got watered down and eventually just became the top division of the (renamed - spot a pattern?) EBL with sides allowed promotion without any real infrastructure/adherence to standards promoted. Nothing really changes while EBBA/EB/BE remain in charge. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 21:03:08 GMT
Maybe the issue is the name of BBL2. This isn't supposed to be about the BBL or its clubs. Its about good clubs in the National League not being served well by the current structure, and asking whether another separate structure for them would better serve their needs and growth, and if such a structure would be possible. They don't want to or can't grow. Solent evidently don't want to as they've built a tiny "arena". Reading want to but have nowhere to play. A different structure isn't going to solve those issues. What Solent and Reading need to do is join the BBL with a promise to build a shiny new venue within three years. A while after that three years they could bring out a nice video saying they're going to build a shiny new venue within three years. As plans go, it'd be brilliant. Obviously they need to avoid being absolutely smashed by a team from a lower league in a semi-final when they get to the big time. But, hell, at least no one would post on the internet knocking the standard of the league that the club who absolutely bummed his side plays in. Because that would smell like sour grapes. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 21:08:51 GMT
Are we just about to kick into the "poor me" routine? If so, and it does lead to another tantrum/flounce, I guess I've achieved something positive today. No hersey. Just stopping myself from pointing out some of the relentless self obsessed **** you've come out with in recent years. You clearly do it without even realising you are doing it. nothing to do with poor me. All to do with you entirely. But I don't want to drag the forum into **** like that tbh. And I ain't going to drag myself down to your level. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 21:20:40 GMT
They don't want to or can't grow. Solent evidently don't want to as they've built a tiny "arena". Reading want to but have nowhere to play. A different structure isn't going to solve those issues. What Solent and Reading need to do is join the BBL with a promise to build a shiny new venue within three years. A while after that three years they could bring out a nice video saying they're going to build a shiny new venue within three years. As plans go, it'd be brilliant. Obviously they need to avoid being absolutely smashed by a team from a lower league in a semi-final when they get to the big time. But, hell, at least no one would post on the internet knocking the standard of the league that the club who absolutely bummed his side plays in. Because that would smell like sour grapes. Yawn. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 21:45:13 GMT
Are we just about to kick into the "poor me" routine? If so, and it does lead to another tantrum/flounce, I guess I've achieved something positive today. No hersey. Just stopping myself from pointing out some of the relentless self obsessed **** you've come out with in recent years. You clearly do it without even realising you are doing it. nothing to do with poor me. All to do with you entirely. But I don't want to drag the forum into **** like that tbh. And I ain't going to drag myself down to your level. Oh no, go on, fill your boots. Go through it all, don't miss out the bit where Mr Tall had to explain the rules of the game to you. Continue the pompous crap that makes you a figure of fun for the few people at the higher echelons of the game who still read this board. Obviously RSV won't be reading because he's fell asleep and is dreaming of a world where Bristol get (and lose) a game three against Solent, but don't hold back. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 22, 2020 21:52:51 GMT
No hersey. Just stopping myself from pointing out some of the relentless self obsessed **** you've come out with in recent years. You clearly do it without even realising you are doing it. nothing to do with poor me. All to do with you entirely. But I don't want to drag the forum into **** like that tbh. And I ain't going to drag myself down to your level. Oh no, go on, fill your boots. Go through it all, don't miss out the bit where Mr Tall had to explain the rules of the game to you. Continue the pompous crap that makes you a figure of fun for the few people at the higher echelons of the game who still read this board. Obviously RSV won't be reading because he's fell asleep and is dreaming of a world where Bristol get (and lose) a game three against Solent, but don't hold back. No it's too personal Hersey. I wouldn't go where others did. I'm not at the gutter level where you like to operate. Like I say you were so wrapped up in it all you never even realised how you came across. I've stopped reading your blogs since then so hopefully you've got over it by now. Although I doubt it somehow. Now do me a favour and stop stalking me |
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Post by rideralex on Mar 22, 2020 22:05:07 GMT
Maybe the issue is the name of BBL2. This isn't supposed to be about the BBL or its clubs. Its about good clubs in the National League not being served well by the current structure, and asking whether another separate structure for them would better serve their needs and growth, and if such a structure would be possible. They don't want to or can't grow. Solent evidently don't want to as they've built a tiny "arena". Reading want to but have nowhere to play. A different structure isn't going to solve those issues. Just because you failed to understand that charging £10 to watch a game in a empty university sports hall with no commentary and nowhere to obtain any refreshments while doing barely any promotion of the games is going to result in basically nobody attending games doesn't mean that with the right strategy NBL teams can't grow. With the right strategies in place both on and off the court many NBL clubs are already attracting decent crowds and others could do so by following such strategies, but either don't want to for whatever reason or do not have the resources to do so and seemingly get little to no help from BE in growing the sport at a spectator level. . |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 0:56:55 GMT
They don't want to or can't grow. Solent evidently don't want to as they've built a tiny "arena". Reading want to but have nowhere to play. A different structure isn't going to solve those issues. Just because you failed to understand that charging £10 to watch a game in a empty university sports hall with no commentary and nowhere to obtain any refreshments while doing barely any promotion of the games is going to result in basically nobody attending games doesn't mean that with the right strategy NBL teams can't grow. With the right strategies in place both on and off the court many NBL clubs are already attracting decent crowds and others could do so by following such strategies, but either don't want to for whatever reason or do not have the resources to do so and seemingly get little to no help from BE in growing the sport at a spectator level. . So, Solent are going to grow past 600 per game at any point in the next ten years? I'm not lying that the building they've produced just doesn't allow for growth of that team long-term. I'm not talking about growing enough to hit even 1,000 a game but enough that there is a league in this country that is taken seriously enough that a TV channel want it regularly, that sponsors feel has some value for money. Absolutely, I agree the support isn't there. Reading for example want to grow but are lacking a venue to do so which sucks for them and I feel for them on that front. But at least they want to and have aspirations. I'm saying teams don't want to grow enough to have to worry about trying to fill 2,000+ seats and the financial implications, and I can see why but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. The ones that do want to grow, they unfortunately don't have a location to try do that. I'd love if there was more competition in the BBL. I don't wanna see teams die out like Leeds and LCR. And if you think I'd charge £10 for that, there's NO WAY. |
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Post by connors on Mar 23, 2020 7:12:25 GMT
I've waffled on this topic before.
I think it would not be difficult to build a case that it is actually the BBL that isn't really sustainable in this country rather than having a BBL2.
That ignores the fact that, as Hersey points out, it is a far better run league than the NBL. That said the BBL has only one task to do and it does it reasonably well. BE has many tasks to do as governing body and seems to largely fail at most!
A consolidated approach under one organisation for "pro" or "Semi-pro" basketball cascading down to the regional levels and then county/metropolitan leagues (via affiliation) would be my favoured structure but it would need GB that was capable and we don't have one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:42:24 GMT
Oh no, go on, fill your boots. Go through it all, don't miss out the bit where Mr Tall had to explain the rules of the game to you. Continue the pompous crap that makes you a figure of fun for the few people at the higher echelons of the game who still read this board. Obviously RSV won't be reading because he's fell asleep and is dreaming of a world where Bristol get (and lose) a game three against Solent, but don't hold back. No it's too personal Hersey. I wouldn't go where others did. I'm not at the gutter level where you like to operate. Like I say you were so wrapped up in it all you never even realised how you came across. I've stopped reading your blogs since then so hopefully you've got over it by now. Although I doubt it somehow. Now do me a favour and stop stalking me And what does that all actually mean? I've pointed out that your posts are long and repetitive (what a shock that you turn out to be Whatsbev's expert on Covid-19) but nothing sinks in. You decided to change this thread to being about the plague, despite Scotball's final words when he started what could've been a decent debate. But now you're accusing me of stalking you, and claiming that I operate in the gutter, whereas I actually I write about basketball and somehow survive the news that you don't read my blog. You need to grow up. If you can't accept people disagreeing with you perhaps you shouldn't try to reply every single post on here.
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