km18
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Post by km18 on Mar 26, 2020 21:37:09 GMT
Hi all, I'm currently a BBL player for one of our fine teams (yes we do read what is said on here sometimes  ). Something that I've heard spoken about from time to time among players and others is the formation of a players union, just as they have in France and other leagues. Assuming the BBL still exists come the end of this civilizational stress test, and I still have a job in it, I was thinking of trying to asses the viability of forming a union for professional players in this country. It would be great to hear what anyone's opinions are regarding the impediments to the formation of such a union, and the costs and benefits the union could have on the welfare of players, clubs and the overall success of the league as a whole. Any opinions/advice/info would be appreciated. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 26, 2020 22:05:35 GMT
Hi all, I'm currently a BBL player for one of our fine teams (yes we do read what is said on here sometimes ). Something that I've heard spoken about from time to time among players and others is the formation of a players union, just as they have in France and other leagues. Assuming the BBL still exists come the end of this civilizational stress test, and I still have a job in it, I was thinking of trying to asses the viability of forming a union for professional players in this country. It would be great to hear what anyone's opinions are regarding the impediments to the formation of such a union, and the costs and benefits the union could have on the welfare of players, clubs and the overall success of the league as a whole. Any opinions/advice/info would be appreciated. Although I think you guys get very rough deals by and large I think it's a huge ask getting any kind of union together. Even tougher in the current conditions where clubs surviving this for you guys to even have the chance to still play for will be hard enough. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 1:22:05 GMT
What would you be aiming to achieve by employing this?
Main issue I can see is that if you'd be looking to implement some sort of parity between players treatment and earnings club-to- club you've got little-to-no chance because of how differently clubs are run. Some include a car in their deal, some include shared accommodation, some include individual, some include none, some players aren't paid and are uni students playing-up.
Another issue is who runs it? You'd need to get players involved but then you'd have to make sure it was by players who don't plan to leave the league and who also are assured that their team want to keep them long term, which with one-year deals the norm, isn't going to have people jumping to volunteer... which is a problem itself. Nobody is going to pay for it to be run so it's a spare time thing. Which I imagine not many guys want to give up.
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km18
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Post by km18 on Mar 27, 2020 5:32:37 GMT
What would you be aiming to achieve by employing this? Main issue I can see is that if you'd be looking to implement some sort of parity between players treatment and earnings club-to- club you've got little-to-no chance because of how differently clubs are run. Some include a car in their deal, some include shared accommodation, some include individual, some include none, some players aren't paid and are uni students playing-up. Another issue is who runs it? You'd need to get players involved but then you'd have to make sure it was by players who don't plan to leave the league and who also are assured that their team want to keep them long term, which with one-year deals the norm, isn't going to have people jumping to volunteer... which is a problem itself. Nobody is going to pay for it to be run so it's a spare time thing. Which I imagine not many guys want to give up. Ultimately it would try and protect some minimum standards in the treatment of all players across the league. Whilst the financial position of a number of teams in the league is not outstanding and any union action must reflect this reality, it cant be acceptable for a professional club to be consistently late in paying their players, to owe players money after the season finishes, to provide inadequate training facilities or accommodation etc... Players regularly complain about a number of issues (for example, going ahead with games on the trophy final weekend, in the early-ish stages of a pandemic, is something I know a number of players objected to) but having no backing from a union usually means these grievances go unanswered. You are right that many players may not wish to see some deduction from wages to sustain union activity. But they then cant expect anything to be done about the poor treatment they sometimes receive. Complaining on social media does nothing to address their concerns. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 27, 2020 7:01:47 GMT
What would you be aiming to achieve by employing this? Main issue I can see is that if you'd be looking to implement some sort of parity between players treatment and earnings club-to- club you've got little-to-no chance because of how differently clubs are run. Some include a car in their deal, some include shared accommodation, some include individual, some include none, some players aren't paid and are uni students playing-up. Another issue is who runs it? You'd need to get players involved but then you'd have to make sure it was by players who don't plan to leave the league and who also are assured that their team want to keep them long term, which with one-year deals the norm, isn't going to have people jumping to volunteer... which is a problem itself. Nobody is going to pay for it to be run so it's a spare time thing. Which I imagine not many guys want to give up. Ultimately it would try and protect some minimum standards in the treatment of all players across the league. Whilst the financial position of a number of teams in the league is not outstanding and any union action must reflect this reality, it cant be acceptable for a professional club to be consistently late in paying their players, to owe players money after the season finishes, to provide inadequate training facilities or accommodation etc... Players regularly complain about a number of issues (for example, going ahead with games on the trophy final weekend, in the early-ish stages of a pandemic, is something I know a number of players objected to) but having no backing from a union usually means these grievances go unanswered. You are right that many players may not wish to see some deduction from wages to sustain union activity. But they then cant expect anything to be done about the poor treatment they sometimes receive. Complaining on social media does nothing to address their concerns. It might be a role for an ex player to take on. Someone who can't damage their own career by being outspoken or sticking up for players rights. They would have the time to do it justice. I also imagine they would be busy though. But if you got enough players signed up to take advice and be part of the group. You might get somewhere. Pretty much needs all the players to sign up and pay a decent amount to give the Union guy the resource he might need to make progress. And that person needs a lot of skill sets. An ex player with legal experience. With leadership skills. Someone like Bigz comes to mind! But he will be busy enough already no doubt. With Bigz running a player's union things would get interesting I'm sure! |
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Post by number23 on Mar 27, 2020 8:05:13 GMT
I think an organised group to advocate for players is long overdue. As you said, potshot comments on social media achieve nothing except damaging reputations all round.
While wages and benefits will always vary around the league, there should be a consistent basic set of standards like actually getting paid what you’re owed in full and on time. A clear voice from the playing community should help maintain that standard and improve it over time.
A respected ex-pro sounds like an ideal person to head such a union so they can maintain neutrality, but it’ll take investment of time from several more to make it work. Money to get it started and run is a question too, but I’m not sure what costs are actually involved. I know very little about unions, but I think of things like AGMs, preparing and sending minutes, sending and collating voting slips for group decisions... Is that the reality - or even if it is, does it need to be in this new remote-working environment?
There’s some good thoughts on this topic on the latest Makem Takem podcast too, if you have time to give it a listen.
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Post by faz on Mar 27, 2020 8:56:27 GMT
Completely agree about the objectives. A players representative body sounds like it’s a must.
However there needs to be realism as to what is achievable. Most clubs only just survive but that didn’t mean bad practices are acceptable. I know a club who reneged in a 2 year deal then just threatened liquidation when legalities became involved. A club objected to a player returning home for his aunts (defacto mother) funeral as it clashed with a trophy semi final. Some don’t seem to care about reputation as there’s always a fresh intake of imports available every year.
I like the idea of an ex pro representing the players as I’d guess an existing pro wouldn’t get a contract the following year.
You’re not exactly coming from a position of strength with most clubs able to hire and fire as they wish due to basic supply and demand. However mid season, the threat of refusing to play would be pretty strong but again I doubt any players involved would be playing in the bbl the following year. I actually think it’s something the clubs should promote themselves as it would enhance the leagues credibility.
If you’re serious I’d contact an existing union for advice but would you still have a contract if it was known a player was approaching other players to join a union?
I’m sure most clubs are genuine and well intentioned and a representative body can often assist in resolving misunderstandings without confrontation.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Mar 27, 2020 8:57:15 GMT
Ultimately it would try and protect some minimum standards in the treatment of all players across the league. Whilst the financial position of a number of teams in the league is not outstanding and any union action must reflect this reality, it cant be acceptable for a professional club to be consistently late in paying their players, to owe players money after the season finishes, to provide inadequate training facilities or accommodation etc... Players regularly complain about a number of issues (for example, going ahead with games on the trophy final weekend, in the early-ish stages of a pandemic, is something I know a number of players objected to) but having no backing from a union usually means these grievances go unanswered. You are right that many players may not wish to see some deduction from wages to sustain union activity. But they then cant expect anything to be done about the poor treatment they sometimes receive. Complaining on social media does nothing to address their concerns. It might be a role for an ex player to take on. Someone who can't damage their own career by being outspoken or sticking up for players rights. They would have the time to do it justice. I also imagine they would be busy though. But if you got enough players signed up to take advice and be part of the group. You might get somewhere. Pretty much needs all the players to sign up and pay a decent amount to give the Union guy the resource he might need to make progress. And that person needs a lot of skill sets. An ex player with legal experience. With leadership skills. Someone like Bigz comes to mind! But he will be busy enough already no doubt. With Bigz running a player's union things would get interesting I'm sure! Mate Ive been whiskers away from starting to try and lay foundations in the past. Literally whiskers. |
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Post by dabudesu on Mar 27, 2020 9:53:09 GMT
I also like your idea, a union to support players (and, dare I say, coaches and all other employees within basketball) would be very valuable.
I've worked in a factory for nearly 20 years now, and I have seen the good work our union reps do on a regular basis.
From my experience of an outsider looking in on the work that our reps do, they can spend a lot of time on union work if there are specific issues to resolve, and they spend a good amount of time being trained by the Union (it can be a full time job at times). They also have the power of the national Union behind them if they need support. As an example, they provide professional legal support, which is a really important aspect.
Rather than setting up your own union from scratch, is there a union already in exsistance that you could join? I imagine football players have a union, and I'm sure that would be well funded!
Good luck with this, please keep putting more questions up, it sounds like there are lots of people on here who can point you in the right directions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 10:28:38 GMT
Hasn't it been tried before? Henlan and Bucknell, I think. Not that its failure should mean that another attempt.
At any given time there's always clubs with a bad rep - reneging on contracts, final month's money not arriving, crap living conditions - but the following season a whole new group of players arrive convinced that, somehow, it'll be different. And blackballing certainly happens. How many of the players who refused to play for (racist) Chuck Evans at Worcester got another gig in the BBL? It ended Harker's pro career. Would a union have told its members to refuse to play at Worcester in support of their fellow players and force Wolves to re-employ them? The fact that replacement players agreed to sign for Wolves & Evans shows the problem a union would have. And a more modern example were Royals. Everyone knew they hadn't honoured the 19/20 contracts, but they still found good players to sign for them this season. It's not as if it's any better in Europe. Arguably it's worse.
Not everyone's as wonderful as Leopards  In many ways clubs who don't screw players over also suffer. We miss out on players who are offered money they're never going to get, and when we do sign players who've been screwed over we have to deal with the suspicion and mistrust that they understandably have.
I wish you luck, though. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 11:46:52 GMT
Good luck with a union
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km18
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Post by km18 on Mar 28, 2020 2:53:20 GMT
Thanks for the input son far!
I think the stumbling blocks to the formation of a union as far as I can tell, which has been echoed here, are:
- Very insecure yearly contracts alongside a huge number of players who could be taken on as replacements (especially for imports), meaning players would be unwilling to risk any union action (or to even join it) for fear of redundancy, while players who expect to leave the league after one year may have no investment in improving things for the longer term.
- The low wages and relatively small number of professional players in the league, so the fees collected by the union, assuming every player contributed, would still be negligible. Certainly not enough to employ someone full-time. So the union would need to be managed part-time by players and others.
- Lack of solidarity or engagement from players
- The difficulties in establishing the union, the hurdles in terms of administration and player coordination would be pretty big. Would anyone devote that kind of time to the task.
I'd assume the owners would have no real problem with a players union (perhaps I'm wrong). But there would be some benefits to them too, assuming the union wasn't too militant about things.
Most likely anything would have to be led by established players who have a bit more skin in the game than the mercenaries who come and go each season. Or by former players who would have no risk of being fired. Someone like Kieron Achara may have the skills, Bigz is a brilliant shout too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 13:19:41 GMT
Are you going to say who you are or keep that secret? Maybe just the team you play for ?
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Post by reallyoldfeenixfan on Mar 28, 2020 13:44:50 GMT
Are you going to say who you are or keep that secret? Maybe just the team you play for ? Ok seeing as the majority of us are isolating as we should be and have time on our hands, why don't we compile a list of all the current BBL players with the initials of km? Then we need a list of all ex-players with km, then a list of players with mk ( in case they're keeping it a secret). Alteratively just ask Bigz, that'll be quicker ( not that he'd tell us)!! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 14:16:02 GMT
Are you going to say who you are or keep that secret? Maybe just the team you play for ? Ok seeing as the majority of us are isolating as we should be and have time on our hands, why don't we compile a list of all the current BBL players with the initials of km? Then we need a list of all ex-players with km, then a list of players with mk ( in case they're keeping it a secret). Alteratively just ask Bigz, that'll be quicker ( not that he'd tell us)!! or just go to the BBL player stats page and look there. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 28, 2020 15:52:54 GMT
It's Mike Tuck lining up his next job
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2NFR
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Post by 2NFR on Mar 28, 2020 17:38:35 GMT
...or you could just look km18 profile e-mail address, its not that hard to work out  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 17:45:24 GMT
I think such knowledge is only available to you important mod chaps.
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2NFR
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Post by 2NFR on Mar 28, 2020 17:56:31 GMT
Hersey ... I did'nt know that ... I just assumed we all had access to them details on that note, If said player wishes to remain anonymous, then that's his/her prerogative  ...It's up to him/her to announce such details, if he/she so chooses. Until then, my lips are  |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 28, 2020 18:04:24 GMT
Hersey ... I did'nt know that ... I just assumed we all had access to them details on that note, If said player wishes to remain anonymous, then that's his/her prerogative ...It's up to him/her to announce such details, if he/she so chooses. Until then, my lips are Can you read our private messages as well 2NFR? lol if so I will stop talking about you in private? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 18:20:08 GMT
I doubt he has time to read your endlessly boring posts, let alone your PMs
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 28, 2020 18:21:06 GMT
I doubt he has time to read your endlessly boring posts, let alone your PMs handsome man alert wasnt talking to you ****head dont ever reply to me again mods this sad little basketball kit does nothing but stir and cause trouble on here with me. If you let it continue in the forum it's just going to get shxt on here |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 19:23:04 GMT
I do hope that the mods can read that PM you just sent. I might stick it on my blog. Which you will now read.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 28, 2020 20:53:54 GMT
I do hope that the mods can read that PM you just sent. I might stick it on my blog. Which you will now read. I'm happy to stick it in here you little weasel |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Mar 28, 2020 20:57:32 GMT
I do hope that the mods can read that PM you just sent. I might stick it on my blog. Which you will now read. I'm happy to stick it in here you little weasel I've been patient and bit my lip uptil now But make one more comment or reference to me on here and when this is over I promise I will come and find you and we will sort this out in person fxxkin keyboard warrior (No need to check pms mods that's the PM word for word above) Sad little handsome man |
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). Something that I've heard spoken about from time to time among players and others is the formation of a players union, just as they have in France and other leagues. 
