Deleted
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Imports
Jun 9, 2020 9:03:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:03:50 GMT
Here me out, this could get confusing.
Imports are more often than not an American.
Imports more often than not start.
Imports are generally seen as the better players and who you expect to score, rebound assist etc.
So in all, as a league we see Americans as better than the British players on our rosters.
That being said, should an American (or other import) coach count for your allotted amount allowed?
Edit yes I know we have amazing British players in the league but let's face it, from top to bottom we dont expect them to perform to the level of imports
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Deleted
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Jun 9, 2020 9:57:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:57:05 GMT
No.
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Jun 9, 2020 10:00:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 10:00:33 GMT
Why not? They're having an impact on the team, why should they not count? |
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Post by massiveridersfan on Jun 9, 2020 11:21:34 GMT
Why not ban all foreigners? Let's just erect a giant drawbridge around the island that is GB.
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Deleted
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Jun 9, 2020 11:37:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 11:37:21 GMT
Why not ban all foreigners? Let's just erect a giant drawbridge around the island that is GB. Not banning anyone, asking why they dont count to your teams roster |
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Post by allstring on Jun 9, 2020 11:50:43 GMT
It’s a no from me.
In my opinion Foreign Coaches have been very beneficial to the British game. I also don’t think they’ve blocked home grown coaches; in fact many British coaches will have blossomed under them.
I think most teams would take an import over an import coach (caveat on teams that don’t use their full allocation). Where somebody like Rob P is in place I suspect Leicester would see the benefit of reducing their non-British players.
Would we want to remove the future likes of Cadle, Nurse, Finch, Donewald, Flournoy, Rob P from coaching in our league? Of course it doesn't remove that, but it would limit them. An import would need to be exceptional to consider replacing Cadle for example. Would Kingston have recruited a young Cadle from Falkirk in the first place? Unlikely. A player converting to player coach then bench coach would likely happen though.
I’m not a fan of Player Coaches. Whether it’s Fab in the BBL or Bill Russell in the NBA. Fab is the closest to it being beneficial. I’ll still argue if you cloned Fab, that a player Fab and a bench coach Fab would be superior. He was great in the trenches (but you could do that as a leader on the court), but I believe you need to be courtside to coach to your potential. Whether Fab would though have been effective as a pure bench coach is never the less interesting. His emotion on court surely influenced his coaching ability.
Whilst I’m open to change/improvement, on this topic I’m not sure I see a reason. Not debating it’s not worth discussing (it is), just personally I don’t think it is resolving an issue.
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Deleted
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Jun 9, 2020 13:59:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 13:59:57 GMT
All string I'm only asking as I'm missing the game. It's just for discussion not trying to change the rules.
You say it doesnt stop british coaches coming through but it really does, we have Marc Stuetal never having coaches bbl even tho he coaches in England. An import coach has taken that spot. We have the likes of Troy Culley doing a phenomenal job in myerscough, in fact let's include Neal and Mike too, they're european champions and not coaching top flight English basketball yet coach in england. Had an import stopped that? Possibly not, if you had a limit would you try to bring them in more? I reckon you probably would.
Of course we dont want to limit the likes of cadle and fab and we do an adaquate job of producing bbl level players, but how often do we produce a bbl level coach? Ben Thomas, Danny Byrne who else? In the last 10 years have we produced and has stayed in the game?
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Post by connors on Jun 9, 2020 15:23:22 GMT
How about no foreign imports at all. Full stop. Try it for a couple of seasons and see if the extra court time and experience overall is a benefit to our players and therefore our game in his country? Or would the superior play of the imports be noticeable in its absence and our own players not able to raise their games.
Would be an interesting experiment if it was forced onto us by Covid for example. Would never happen otherwise.
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Post by faz on Jun 9, 2020 16:25:22 GMT
All string I'm only asking as I'm missing the game. It's just for discussion not trying to change the rules. You say it doesnt stop british coaches coming through but it really does, we have Marc Stuetal never having coaches bbl even tho he coaches in England. An import coach has taken that spot. We have the likes of Troy Culley doing a phenomenal job in myerscough, in fact let's include Neal and Mike too, they're european champions and not coaching top flight English basketball yet coach in england. Had an import stopped that? Possibly not, if you had a limit would you try to bring them in more? I reckon you probably would. Of course we dont want to limit the likes of cadle and fab and we do an adaquate job of producing bbl level players, but how often do we produce a bbl level coach? Ben Thomas, Danny Byrne who else? In the last 10 years have we produced and has stayed in the game? Just a wild punt as I have no figures to back it up but I suspect Neal, Mike and Troy do better financially at Sco than they would do coaching a BBL side. Re coaches in last ten years I’m not sure how long Danny was coaching juniors and giants second team. Equally Matt Newby Hie king he was involved in Leeds. Jay Marriott came and went. Not sure what’s he’s doing now as did Williams and the guy at Glasgow. Can’t remember who coached Knights, Thunder or Pirates. How many in EBL 1 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 17:09:44 GMT
Jay now sells milk
You could argue that my £25k a year salary from mcdonalds beats most bbl coaches. You take the job for the money lol.
I dont think the bbl could afford an all British league could it. They cost more than imports typically
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Post by allstring on Jun 9, 2020 17:45:03 GMT
All string I'm only asking as I'm missing the game. It's just for discussion not trying to change the rules. You say it doesnt stop british coaches coming through but it really does, we have Marc Stuetal never having coaches bbl even tho he coaches in England. An import coach has taken that spot. We have the likes of Troy Culley doing a phenomenal job in myerscough, in fact let's include Neal and Mike too, they're european champions and not coaching top flight English basketball yet coach in england. Had an import stopped that? Possibly not, if you had a limit would you try to bring them in more? I reckon you probably would. Of course we dont want to limit the likes of cadle and fab and we do an adaquate job of producing bbl level players, but how often do we produce a bbl level coach? Ben Thomas, Danny Byrne who else? In the last 10 years have we produced and has stayed in the game? Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good debate. I don't know enough about their backgrounds, but how many of the current coaches would be treated as non-British if they were measured in the same way long serving players were. Lavinder would presumably be EU (sic!). Who else? (not saying there isn't, but I may need educating on some nationalities!) Would Creon fall foul of missed seasons for example? Haven't most of the current coaches in the BBL served an apprentice as either a BBL player or coaching at lower levels? What is the thought on some of the coaches mentioned. Are they missing out by choice, blocked by long established coaches, overlooked in favour of newcomers etc? Your question on producing BBL Level coaches is interesting to consider. Are they being produced? A coach needs to be at a certain level to be given the "big" job. I guess the crux of British coach opportunities is the individual situations of the highly regarded guys at the lower levels. Last years choice of British coach at the Royals didn't go down particularly well (was a very specific situation of course) but what is blocking the more highly regarded names. |
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Jun 9, 2020 18:03:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:03:41 GMT
Let's look at them
Paul James - British - player to coach
Rob Paternostro - Import - player to coach
Ian Macload - British - development coach to bbl
Creon Raft - Zimbabwe (brit passport?) - development to bbl
Vince Mac - British - Every role under the sun
Matt Newby - British - Development coach to bbl
Atiba Lyons - Import - player to coach
Danny Byrne - British - Development to bbl
Lavindier - Import - Pro coach to bbl
Ben Thomas - British - Development to bbl
Andreas Kapolous - Import - development to bbl
I've counted EU as import because in my theory theyd still take up one of the non brit slots.
5 imports, so just under half, however that being said I'd argue only Rob, Lav and Atiba are hear to coach basketball first the other two would still be hear if they hadnt coached.
Theres a lot that have developed to become a bbl coach but I question how many developed for this role or where they just offered it when a job came up and it was a relatively cheap option?
With so few British developed coaches outside of England working you have to question if we are developing them or just developing youth coaches?
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Post by massiveridersfan on Jun 9, 2020 18:34:53 GMT
How about no foreign imports at all. Full stop. Try it for a couple of seasons and see if the extra court time and experience overall is a benefit to our players and therefore our game in his country? Or would the superior play of the imports be noticeable in its absence and our own players not able to raise their games. Would be an interesting experiment if it was forced onto us by Covid for example. Would never happen otherwise. Wouldn't like to watch teams without some imports. Suspect many others wouldn't either - the BBL is a hard enough sell as it is to Joe Public. |
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Post by connors on Jun 10, 2020 11:37:57 GMT
I think in the short term all British Teams would be an inferior product. However what makes an entertaining game to watch are too well matched sides going at it competitively. You don't need imports to provide that. I'm sure we've all seen really entertaining junior, local league and even school league matches in the past where the players may not be technically the best but the competition and drama of a good game compensate.
You are probably correct though. It was just an alternative take on things.
Overall, IMO, imports have improved the game over here. I think particularly so the ones that really stuck around and made a lasting impression. The 80's and 90's had a good batch of Americans who had real quality and stayed in the league for a number of years.
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D44
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Jun 10, 2020 12:09:08 GMT
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Post by D44 on Jun 10, 2020 12:09:08 GMT
Being an coach isn't especially well payed, I'd imagine most British coaches wouldn't uproot their family to a different area if managing an NBL or D2 team to manage a BBL team for example. Rob P and Marc Steutel both said similar in recent interviews. Marc even saying it was the reason he took the Tees job in D3 as its only an hour from where his family are based.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 7:53:40 GMT
How about no foreign imports at all. Full stop. Try it for a couple of seasons and see if the extra court time and experience overall is a benefit to our players and therefore our game in his country? Or would the superior play of the imports be noticeable in its absence and our own players not able to raise their games. Would be an interesting experiment if it was forced onto us by Covid for example. Would never happen otherwise. Wouldn't like to watch teams without some imports. Suspect many others wouldn't either - the BBL is a hard enough sell as it is to Joe Public. You don't have to worry, because the only talk is about temporary changes to visa rules, and I know you're not alone. But I find it a bid sad that someone who's watched his team forever wouldn't want to watch his team without imports. Let's face it for every decent Yank that the BBL gets, there's a bloke who shrunk on the plane, or one who's effectively on a gap-year before getting a real job or negotiated a clause in his contract saying he can leave if a team in South Yeman offer him a quid a month more. Yeah, they improve the game but they're not the be-all and end-all.
The money on offer working at academies definitely means that British talent is likely to stay at that level rather than look to come to the BBL
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Imports
Jun 12, 2020 7:26:55 GMT
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jun 12, 2020 7:26:55 GMT
I would watch. Basketball is an exciting end to end game. It can still be exciting without imports.
A competitive game with all UK players involved would be more than worth watching IMO
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Post by massiveridersfan on Jun 12, 2020 7:59:31 GMT
I would watch. Basketball is an exciting end to end game. It can still be exciting without imports. A competitive game with all UK players involved would be more than worth watching IMO I would watch such a game but I wouldn't pay for it and I don't think many others would either. We have a hard enough job selling out the arena with imports so imagine if there weren't any. A lot of the excitement at the beginning of the season surrounds which imports will be playing for our team. Of course, there are excellent Brits but let's not kid ourselves that the BBL would attract many who would show up and pay money if there weren't imports, both from the USA and elsewhere. |
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Post by connors on Jun 12, 2020 8:10:50 GMT
Clearly there are a lot of knowledgeable BBL fans who would get into this detail eventually.
However as an example I usually take my 8 year old to Eagles several times a year and he loves it. I've also taken him to watch D3 Mohawks games and he loved those as well. As far as he is concerned the starting centre for the Mohawks team is the best player ever outside Michael Jordan and Russ Westbrook!
What he gets bored watching are blow outs with players going through the motions. Same for the parents of juniors when we go as a club to Eagles. They love the atmosphere when its a close competitive game. They are not looking at the finer points or remotely interested in whether somebody comes from the USA and went to college with *insert NBA player here* or not.
Overall import coaches and players have had a positive impact I believe. I also believe the BBL would not necessarily die without them is all.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 9:13:20 GMT
I would watch. Basketball is an exciting end to end game. It can still be exciting without imports. A competitive game with all UK players involved would be more than worth watching IMO and I don't think many others would either. We have a hard enough job selling out the arena with imports so imagine if there weren't any. A lot of the excitement at the beginning of the season surrounds which imports will be playing for our team. Of course, there are excellent Brits but let's not kid ourselves that the BBL would attract many who would show up and pay money if there weren't imports, both from the USA and elsewhere. Wow, that's quite a statement. You wouldn't be interested enough to hand a fiver over to watch games between the best British players - which would be somewhere between the BBL & D1. Riders have a team full of good, young, British guys playing in D1, but presumably you're not interested in them. I really question your last point because half the crowd haven't got a clue about the nationality/background of the players on the court. A dunk's a dunk, regardless of the colour of the dunker's passport.
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Deleted
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Jun 12, 2020 10:53:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 10:53:46 GMT
Imagine saying your a fan of a bbl team but wouldn't pay to watch if there wasnt any Americans. Absolutely gobsmacked at that statement
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Post by ko25 on Jun 12, 2020 10:56:39 GMT
Imagine saying your a fan of a bbl team but wouldn't pay to watch if there wasnt any Americans. Absolutely gobsmacked at that statement Didn't the new Giants play with no imports for about 5 years and there were the odd fan that showed up there.  |
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Deleted
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Jun 12, 2020 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 11:09:28 GMT
Let's compare Durhams all American season to giants no Americans season.
I wonder who had more fans
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Imports
Jun 12, 2020 11:13:49 GMT
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jun 12, 2020 11:13:49 GMT
I would watch. Basketball is an exciting end to end game. It can still be exciting without imports. A competitive game with all UK players involved would be more than worth watching IMO I would watch such a game but I wouldn't pay for it and I don't think many others would either. We have a hard enough job selling out the arena with imports so imagine if there weren't any. A lot of the excitement at the beginning of the season surrounds which imports will be playing for our team. Of course, there are excellent Brits but let's not kid ourselves that the BBL would attract many who would show up and pay money if there weren't imports, both from the USA and elsewhere. I would pay if it allows the match experience to be more like it is uptil now. Bills have to be paid and played need expenses at least and clubs need to pay for travel and kit If we put money in we will get a better product to watch |
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Post by massiveridersfan on Jun 12, 2020 18:27:38 GMT
If Riders couldn't afford imports then I guess I'd buy a ticket but much of the excitement would go without imports. I think the mix at Leicester is great and it would be diminished if we had nil overseas players. Good luck selling an all Brits team to fans unless the club was loaded and could afford at least 6 players of Sullivan's calibre. Not going to happen, especially after this pandemic.
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