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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 8:20:03 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is I have been in my current job exactly 2 years today.
Couldn't write it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 8:29:22 GMT
I think the difference between football and basketball is that latter has FIBA/UEFA/FA/PL/FL all of whom will insist contracts are honoured and unions who are willing to fight on their members' behalf. That's why sacked managers get pay-offs (though often nowhere near the whole value of their contract) and players who are a pain in the butt get given money to FRO. Basketball has very little of that. From Bigz' comments, Royals had agreed to a FIBA arbitration clause in the contract, they may have been a bit green there as I suspect many clubs don't - ask Treyvonne Wright. There's nothing to say players/coaches won't win in court (Tim Darling at Leicester did a million years ago) but it's expensive and time-consuming. and it stops the plaintiff working in the meantime. Employment rights do exist for players but it's effectively seasonal work, they leave the club in May (April if the team fail) and return in September. They never get to the stage where they've had two years unbroken employment. This is why I decided against a career as a player  . |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 8:30:09 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is I have been in my current job exactly 2 years today. Couldn't write it. Does that mean you can no longer be sacked for spending all day on Bev. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 8:53:09 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is I have been in my current job exactly 2 years today. Couldn't write it. Does that mean you can no longer be sacked for spending all day on Bev. Its seen as charity work.....
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Post by passerby on Oct 2, 2019 9:11:06 GMT
............. From Bigz' comments, Royals had agreed to a FIBA arbitration clause in the contract, they may have been a bit green there as I suspect many clubs don't - ask Treyvonne Wright. There's nothing to say players/coaches won't win in court (Tim Darling at Leicester did a million years ago) but it's expensive and time-consuming. and it stops the plaintiff working in the meantime.......... I think the standard BBL contract, which I understand from a recent tribunal case may not be fit for purpose, does not include a FIBA arbitration clause. Players like MBA possibly bring their own contracts or wordings to be included in contracts from their extensive experience elsewhere. This might be the case for Justin Robinson also, as someone mentioned earlier he considers he has a strong contract. I know of two tribunals in the last year (there could well be others) that found in favour of the players, both of which were within 1 year BBL contracts. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 9:38:08 GMT
............. From Bigz' comments, Royals had agreed to a FIBA arbitration clause in the contract, they may have been a bit green there as I suspect many clubs don't - ask Treyvonne Wright. There's nothing to say players/coaches won't win in court (Tim Darling at Leicester did a million years ago) but it's expensive and time-consuming. and it stops the plaintiff working in the meantime.......... I think the standard BBL contract, which I understand from a recent tribunal case may not be fit for purpose, does not include a FIBA arbitration clause. Players like MBA possibly bring their own contracts or wordings to be included in contracts from their extensive experience elsewhere. This might be the case for Justin Robinson also, as someone mentioned earlier he considers he has a strong contract. I know of two tribunals in the last year (there could well be others) that found in favour of the players, both of which were within 1 year BBL contracts. What were the claims brought for though?
If it's simply a case of player A not been paid for the last few months worth of work - of course its enforceable.
I'm told the FIBA Arb clause is fairly standard these days by someone who negotiates contracts for one of the better BBL sides....
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Post by LTFan on Oct 2, 2019 13:20:54 GMT
Thanks for the education Bigz. Not often you get something free from a lawyer ! Could you explain why football managers get huge pay-offs when they're sacked from their jobs ? I don't follow how that works given they have no employment rights until year 2 ? They have the financial power to demand guarantees written into the contract - they don't need the work and the clubs often go and head hunt them - if you want the guy you'll have to guarantee the contract. Not the case with basketball players at this level as they're generally ten a penny. As are regular jobs in the real world - if you don't accept the general terms there'll be someone else who will. Not the case for sought after football managers. And don't get me started on the NBA, as they're all centrally contracted to the league as I understand it. Exactly, despite you getting frustrated at me that’s exactly what I’ve been saying! I don’t doubt what you’re saying about the 2 year minimum, but you can’t claim it applies to everyone. As you say, some contacts have certain guarantees, and if the employer cancels the employees contract at any point there can be serious financial ramifications. If I were allowed to I could give you a few examples from the entertainment industry. And the example of a football manager is another good one. The truth is no-one knows the details of the contract Royals signed with MBA and Hamilton, but there’s no guarantee Royals can legally cancel their contracts just because they haven’t been employed by them for 2 years yet. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 13:51:19 GMT
They have the financial power to demand guarantees written into the contract - they don't need the work and the clubs often go and head hunt them - if you want the guy you'll have to guarantee the contract. Not the case with basketball players at this level as they're generally ten a penny. As are regular jobs in the real world - if you don't accept the general terms there'll be someone else who will. Not the case for sought after football managers. And don't get me started on the NBA, as they're all centrally contracted to the league as I understand it. Exactly, despite you getting frustrated at me that’s exactly what I’ve been saying! I don’t doubt what you’re saying about the 2 year minimum, but you can’t claim it applies to everyone. As you say, some contacts have certain guarantees, and if the employer cancels the employees contract at any point there can be serious financial ramifications. If I were allowed to I could give you a few examples from the entertainment industry. And the example of a football manager is another good one. The truth is no-one knows the details of the contract Royals signed with MBA and Hamilton, but there’s no guarantee Royals can legally cancel their contracts just because they haven’t been employed by them for 2 years yet. Entertainment industry generally works completely differently - they tend to be sub contracted, and often the contract will be between (for example) a broadcaster and the said celebrity's limited company (there's tax implications).
Standard rules of employment by a company for an individual do apply to everyone. That's what a law is.
Like I say, its only very limited examples that guarantees in contracts apply to. Elite athletes (NOT BBL level) and people who are headhunted (and wanted so desperately by a company) are the main ones.
Ever heard of a player getting cut?
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Post by LTFan on Oct 2, 2019 14:09:04 GMT
Exactly, despite you getting frustrated at me that’s exactly what I’ve been saying! I don’t doubt what you’re saying about the 2 year minimum, but you can’t claim it applies to everyone. As you say, some contacts have certain guarantees, and if the employer cancels the employees contract at any point there can be serious financial ramifications. If I were allowed to I could give you a few examples from the entertainment industry. And the example of a football manager is another good one. The truth is no-one knows the details of the contract Royals signed with MBA and Hamilton, but there’s no guarantee Royals can legally cancel their contracts just because they haven’t been employed by them for 2 years yet. Entertainment industry generally works completely differently - they tend to be sub contracted, and often the contract will be between (for example) a broadcaster and the said celebrity's limited company (there's tax implications).
Standard rules of employment by a company for an individual do apply to everyone. That's what a law is.
Like I say, its only very limited examples that guarantees in contracts apply to. Elite athletes (NOT BBL level) and people who are headhunted (and wanted so desperately by a company) are the main ones.
Ever heard of a player getting cut?
Of course. I suppose I thought BBL players of a certain level would be in a position to demand a contract with certain guarantees, but from what you’ve said I guess not. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 14:22:35 GMT
How does it go with BBL player that get injured but not injured enough to be cut from the team? Will they still get a full wage or do they get dropped down to SSP until they have recovered?
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 14:40:58 GMT
Entertainment industry generally works completely differently - they tend to be sub contracted, and often the contract will be between (for example) a broadcaster and the said celebrity's limited company (there's tax implications).
Standard rules of employment by a company for an individual do apply to everyone. That's what a law is.
Like I say, its only very limited examples that guarantees in contracts apply to. Elite athletes (NOT BBL level) and people who are headhunted (and wanted so desperately by a company) are the main ones.
Ever heard of a player getting cut?
Of course. I suppose I thought BBL players of a certain level would be in a position to demand a contract with certain guarantees, but from what you’ve said I guess not. Clubs simply cant afford to guarantee a players wage until the end of the season if he's not performing is the bottom line. Many many clubs across Europe are in a similar boat, I'm not certain but Id imagine only the big boys of the Euroleague will make guarantees. And then again their laws may (will) be different to ours so I really don't know.
This is where Hersey's notion of clubs not releasing a player's registration unless they forgo any unpaid or future guaranteed wages - which happens an awful lot. I say unpaid first because that's the (sad) situation most find themselves in rather than guaranteed contracts.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 2, 2019 14:43:34 GMT
How does it go with BBL player that get injured but not injured enough to be cut from the team? Will they still get a full wage or do they get dropped down to SSP until they have recovered? Some clubs will just cut automatically or not pay whilst a player is injured. Whether that's fair, again I don't exactly sit easy with it but to challenge it legally (and probably be successful as it goes) would take a lot of money- probably more than youre seeking to recover.
Others (and I know this to be true of a successful BBL team) will offer their players lower wages whilst they recover - in the example I 100% know about the wages on offer were above SSP, but there's nothing against them offering it at that level should they wish.
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Post by passerby on Oct 2, 2019 15:50:01 GMT
I believe that the BBL contracts usually have a clause that players can be cut within a defined period at the beginning of the contract, as many jobs do.
With respect to the release of a player's registration, if the club has not paid their wages they are in breach of the contract which is effectively ended (if the player wishes). The player should be able to get their registration released with assistance from the BBL and then pursue a claim whilst looking for another club.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 18:10:49 GMT
The standard contract when I foolishly started this crap allowed a player to be fit after six games or 45 days, whichever was sooner. There was also a clause about when pay would be cut by 50 percent and then 100 percent if unavailable due to injury. Think it was 12 and 24 weeks.
The last bit simply never happens
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Post by passerby on Oct 2, 2019 18:49:47 GMT
Because the players usually carry on playing whilst waiting for payment. But it has happened in one case that I know of.
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Post by bagger on Oct 3, 2019 13:36:29 GMT
Really saddens me, a New club comes in and brings allegedly problems of many discretions. Really hope that Royals go pear shape . Do the BBL need to step in and do something or is it all legal. What ever it is it stinks.
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Post by 33bird on Oct 3, 2019 16:53:57 GMT
Really saddens me, a New club comes in and brings allegedly problems of many discretions. Really hope that Royals go pear shape . Do the BBL need to step in and do something or is it all legal. What ever it is it stinks. Don't disagree with it stinking but isn't this just an occupation hazard of being a pro basketball player outside of the NBA? also I'm thinking that if a big European side had gone to either of their agents with a big money offer they'd have been off like a shot too (and I wouldn't blame them for that either). Just think this situation is far from unique and it's just the way it is. |
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Post by samgray on Oct 3, 2019 18:58:56 GMT
Surprised that people are so damning of Royals as I assume that means the majority think their clubs are never involved in this kind of thing...?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2019 20:12:22 GMT
Surprised that people are so damning of Royals as I assume that means the majority think their clubs are never involved in this kind of thing...?! I was very damning of my team when they did it too if it helps. |
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Post by saintpat on Oct 3, 2019 21:36:51 GMT
Surprised that people are so damning of Royals as I assume that means the majority think their clubs are never involved in this kind of thing...?! Oh, I know my club & the majority of other clubs have been involved in similar. It's probably the figures involved with these two players & the fact that neither are playing at present which makes this far more of a story!! The fact they're clearly still splashing a large amount of cash(in BBL terms) makes it worth talking about. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 4, 2019 7:10:16 GMT
Surprised that people are so damning of Royals as I assume that means the majority think their clubs are never involved in this kind of thing...?! Oh, I know my club & the majority of other clubs have been involved in similar. It's probably the figures involved with these two players & the fact that neither are playing at present which makes this far more of a story!! The fact they're clearly still splashing a large amount of cash(in BBL terms) makes it worth talking about. Quite how those wages were ever handed out in the first place is the interesting bit. |
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