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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 14:20:37 GMT
Does this say more about how lions are run than blaming others. We've heard rumours of players not being paid, Investors walking away. Maybe there is something in that. I suspect Lions are just guilty of being over ambitious. Signing a 10 year agreement with a venue that realistically is out of their league (actually it’s probably out of the league of any British basketball team), but hoping that over time they’d become a big enough success for it. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 7, 2019 14:25:43 GMT
Agree completely with the perceived attitude from those running the Copper Box. It's faintly ridiculous that there's some merit in discussing an alternative permanent venue; the Copper Box is pretty much ideally suited. If it doesn't work out then the Lions franchise might as well call it a day in London, and a serious look should be taken at what level basketball is working towards in this country. Still, not for three years. If we assume Royals are no longer around when Lions hypothetically make such a decision… do we really think the BBL would just stand by and let it happen? The BBL needs a London franchise, so I suspect they’d decide to either invite a NBL team (because tat worked so well with London United and London Capital!) or do something to make Lions staying in London beneficial, or at least workable. He got a franchise in the capital city with potentially the biggest market in the country by a mile for free when he relocated from MK, what more help do you want than that? |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 14:30:53 GMT
I know nothing about London venues but cannot believe there’s so few options, with Eagles having just vacated a perfectly acceptable 2,800 capacity venue at Sports Central in the tiny little settlement of Newcastle. Wembley Arena, the Excel centre, the O2 dome, Brixton ? Where did Leopards used to play ? I guess money will be the barrier for the bigger venues but there must be plenty of options. Even Sport Central is only a 3 hour train journey away ! London Leopards used to play at the London Arena in Docklands which was demolished over 10 years ago. It’s not that London is short of venues, it’s just that it’s short of venues that are suitable for a BBL team. If the Copper Box is too expensive then you can guarantee Wembley Arena and The O2 would be too. The Excel Centre (or a part of it) might be more affordable, but it’s location isn’t great, it’s not really that far from the UEL. And for all 3 of those I suspect availability would also be a major issue. |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 14:33:25 GMT
If we assume Royals are no longer around when Lions hypothetically make such a decision… do we really think the BBL would just stand by and let it happen? The BBL needs a London franchise, so I suspect they’d decide to either invite a NBL team (because tat worked so well with London United and London Capital!) or do something to make Lions staying in London beneficial, or at least workable. He got a franchise in the capital city with potentially the biggest market in the country by a mile for free when he relocated from MK, what more help do you want than that? More help? What do you mean, what ‘help’ did he get to move the Lions to London? |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 7, 2019 14:37:50 GMT
Way I understand it when you take a franchise out you get given exclusivity to a certain area (London is probably fit to hold two franchises as is now the case to be fair).
Anyone coming into the league would have to pay a franchise fee to get a certain area - he basically ended MK Lions and started London for free. I'd say that was pretty helpful to be fair.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 14:57:03 GMT
Way I understand it when you take a franchise out you get given exclusivity to a certain area (London is probably fit to hold two franchises as is now the case to be fair). Anyone coming into the league would have to pay a franchise fee to get a certain area - he basically ended MK Lions and started London for free. I'd say that was pretty helpful to be fair. So maybe the BBL allowed him to ‘move’ Lions from MK to London without paying the suggested ‘new franchise’ fee… but lets not pretend the BBL didn’t benefit from the move too. The league was without a London team, and had been without a real London team for years. And that’s sort of my point. I can imagine, in the absence of another successful London team, another mutually beneficial ‘deal’ being done. Regarding London being the ‘biggest market in the country by a mile’, I never buy this argument for a better success rate. Yes it has the biggest population, but it also has the biggest competition of leisure event/activities by a mile. All fighting hard for your time and money. So unless you’re able to build an arena in Leicester Square and capitalise on the walk-in tourist crowd you’re probably going to find it much tougher to attract a crowd each week than in places like Leicester. |
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Post by spaghettihoops on Nov 7, 2019 15:53:17 GMT
do we really think the BBL would just stand by and let it happen? The BBL needs a London franchise, so I suspect they’d decide to either invite a NBL team (because tat worked so well with London United and London Capital!) or do something to make Lions staying in London beneficial, or at least workable. I honestly don't see what the BBL have it in their power to do. What have they been able to do to protect basketball in other key markets around the country? |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 16:12:01 GMT
do we really think the BBL would just stand by and let it happen? The BBL needs a London franchise, so I suspect they’d decide to either invite a NBL team (because tat worked so well with London United and London Capital!) or do something to make Lions staying in London beneficial, or at least workable. I honestly don't see what the BBL have it in their power to do. What have they been able to do to protect basketball in other key markets around the country? Hypothetically, help pay for the costs of hiring a London venue. Controversial I know, but if it were for the greater good of the league then I could see it being agreed if really necessary. |
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Post by spaghettihoops on Nov 7, 2019 16:22:09 GMT
I think the BBL would need to have a lot more money at its disposal before it could do that, never mind would.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 16:33:39 GMT
I think the BBL would need to have a lot more money at its disposal before it could do that, never mind would. There were rumours it already was. Just rumours though. Or another hypothetical, they could relax the venue requirements within the franchise agreement. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 7, 2019 16:38:42 GMT
I don't get why London Lions should get preferential treatment to say a Reading Rockets from a few years ago who only couldn't enter because of their venue restrictions....
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 16:44:24 GMT
I don't get why London Lions should get preferential treatment to say a Reading Rockets from a few years ago who only couldn't enter because of their venue restrictions.... Because one would give the BBL a presence in London. And the other would give the BBL a presence in Reading. I think that speaks for itself. By the way I’m not saying I think it’s particularly fair, just that I could see it happening if the alternative is no London presence. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 21:05:52 GMT
I honestly don't see what the BBL have it in their power to do. What have they been able to do to protect basketball in other key markets around the country? Hypothetically, help pay for the costs of hiring a London venue. Controversial I know, but if it were for the greater good of the league then I could see it being agreed if really necessary. Wow. I'm off to have a chat with the fairies at the end of the garden. |
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Post by rideralex on Nov 7, 2019 21:10:37 GMT
I don't get why London Lions should get preferential treatment to say a Reading Rockets from a few years ago who only couldn't enter because of their venue restrictions.... Because one would give the BBL a presence in London. And the other would give the BBL a presence in Reading. I think that speaks for itself. By the way I’m not saying I think it’s particularly fair, just that I could see it happening if the alternative is no London presence. The only situation in which it would be needed to retain Lions to keep a London presence would be if Royals were no longer in existence. If that was the case Lions would be able to to play at Palace and they'd be no need for the league to subsidise them. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 7:53:38 GMT
I know nothing about London venues but cannot believe there’s so few options, with Eagles having just vacated a perfectly acceptable 2,800 capacity venue at Sports Central in the tiny little settlement of Newcastle. Wembley Arena, the Excel centre, the O2 dome, Brixton ? Where did Leopards used to play ? I guess money will be the barrier for the bigger venues but there must be plenty of options. Even Sport Central is only a 3 hour train journey away ! London Leopards used to play at the London Arena in Docklands which was demolished over 10 years ago. It’s not that London is short of venues, it’s just that it’s short of venues that are suitable for a BBL team. If the Copper Box is too expensive then you can guarantee Wembley Arena and The O2 would be too. The Excel Centre (or a part of it) might be more affordable, but it’s location isn’t great, it’s not really that far from the UEL. And for all 3 of those I suspect availability would also be a major issue. Yeah, it's not as easy as "London's big, there much be somewhere to play". I had a look at the Excel Centre (which I think is built on the site of London Arena) website and it doesn't look like the kind of place that would welcome a basketball club as a tenant. And, as you say, it was never a great area to attract fans back in the days when Leopards were bossing London  I don't know if the people who own Barnet FC are still looking to build an arena at The Hive. But that's north west London, it's another big move & the transport links aren't great.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 8:41:55 GMT
Way I understand it when you take a franchise out you get given exclusivity to a certain area (London is probably fit to hold two franchises as is now the case to be fair). Anyone coming into the league would have to pay a franchise fee to get a certain area - he basically ended MK Lions and started London for free. I'd say that was pretty helpful to be fair. So maybe the BBL allowed him to ‘move’ Lions from MK to London without paying the suggested ‘new franchise’ fee… but lets not pretend the BBL didn’t benefit from the move too. The league was without a London team, and had been without a real London team for years. And that’s sort of my point. I can imagine, in the absence of another successful London team, another mutually beneficial ‘deal’ being done. Regarding London being the ‘biggest market in the country by a mile’, I never buy this argument for a better success rate. Yes it has the biggest population, but it also has the biggest competition of leisure event/activities by a mile. All fighting hard for your time and money. So unless you’re able to build an arena in Leicester Square and capitalise on the walk-in tourist crowd you’re probably going to find it much tougher to attract a crowd each week than in places like Leicester. Hmmm. To an extent you're both right. And wrong. Clubs have always been allowed to move their franchise to an area which didn't have one (Kingston went to Glasgow!), and the BBL would have been stark raving mad to turn down a chance to get into an Olympic legacy venue. But it did kill off East London Royals in the process, so it's arguable whether London didn't have a franchise.
I'm sure the BBL do want at least one London franchise. It's questionable how much they can do to keep Lions or Royals going, and how much other clubs are willing to do to help their rivals. Bigz point about letting Lions play in a sub-standard venue but not letting Reading Rockets do likewise is valid. The BBL is a club, once you're in you'll get away with things that outsiders won't. It's how Bigz got to watch Chester Jets play at Northgate back in the day.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 8, 2019 13:34:35 GMT
London Leopards used to play at the London Arena in Docklands which was demolished over 10 years ago. It’s not that London is short of venues, it’s just that it’s short of venues that are suitable for a BBL team. If the Copper Box is too expensive then you can guarantee Wembley Arena and The O2 would be too. The Excel Centre (or a part of it) might be more affordable, but it’s location isn’t great, it’s not really that far from the UEL. And for all 3 of those I suspect availability would also be a major issue. Yeah, it's not as easy as "London's big, there much be somewhere to play". I had a look at the Excel Centre (which I think is built on the site of London Arena) website and it doesn't look like the kind of place that would welcome a basketball club as a tenant. And, as you say, it was never a great area to attract fans back in the days when Leopards were bossing London
Just being a stickler for details, but the Excel Centre wasn’t built on the site of the old London Arena. In fact the Excel Centre opened in 2000 whereas the London Arena didn’t close until 2005. The London Arena was a short walk from Canary Wharf (and now has apartments on the same site), whereas the Excel Centre is slightly further east down the river – about 10 mins drive. But I think you’re right in saying the Excel Centre probably wouldn’t welcome a basketball team tenant. It certainly has the room, it’s absolutely huge and could easily convert one of its smaller exhibition halls into a decent size BBL venue, but their business is in exhibitions and I don’t think they’d want a basketball team occupying so many dates in it’s calendar. |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 8, 2019 13:46:42 GMT
So maybe the BBL allowed him to ‘move’ Lions from MK to London without paying the suggested ‘new franchise’ fee… but lets not pretend the BBL didn’t benefit from the move too. The league was without a London team, and had been without a real London team for years. And that’s sort of my point. I can imagine, in the absence of another successful London team, another mutually beneficial ‘deal’ being done. Regarding London being the ‘biggest market in the country by a mile’, I never buy this argument for a better success rate. Yes it has the biggest population, but it also has the biggest competition of leisure event/activities by a mile. All fighting hard for your time and money. So unless you’re able to build an arena in Leicester Square and capitalise on the walk-in tourist crowd you’re probably going to find it much tougher to attract a crowd each week than in places like Leicester. Hmmm. To an extent you're both right. And wrong. Clubs have always been allowed to move their franchise to an area which didn't have one (Kingston went to Glasgow!), and the BBL would have been stark raving mad to turn down a chance to get into an Olympic legacy venue. But it did kill off East London Royals in the process, so it's arguable whether London didn't have a franchise.
I'm sure the BBL do want at least one London franchise. It's questionable how much they can do to keep Lions or Royals going, and how much other clubs are willing to do to help their rivals. Bigz point about letting Lions play in a sub-standard venue but not letting Reading Rockets do likewise is valid. The BBL is a club, once you're in you'll get away with things that outsiders won't. It's how Bigz got to watch Chester Jets play at Northgate back in the day.
I’m sorry, but I find it hard to believe that London United were allowed entry into the BBL for any other reason than London Towers had just exited the BBL and they needed a London franchise. I think Reading Rockets have had a much better business case for joining than London United ever did, but the BBL overlooked lots of things for the sake of maintaining a London franchise. If the BBL always operated fairly then they should allow Reading Rockets in too, or have not allowed London United in the first place. The fact London United only lasted in the BBL for 1 season should tell you they weren’t of the required standard to be awarded a franchise spot. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 8, 2019 13:53:15 GMT
So maybe the BBL allowed him to ‘move’ Lions from MK to London without paying the suggested ‘new franchise’ fee… but lets not pretend the BBL didn’t benefit from the move too. The league was without a London team, and had been without a real London team for years. And that’s sort of my point. I can imagine, in the absence of another successful London team, another mutually beneficial ‘deal’ being done. Regarding London being the ‘biggest market in the country by a mile’, I never buy this argument for a better success rate. Yes it has the biggest population, but it also has the biggest competition of leisure event/activities by a mile. All fighting hard for your time and money. So unless you’re able to build an arena in Leicester Square and capitalise on the walk-in tourist crowd you’re probably going to find it much tougher to attract a crowd each week than in places like Leicester. It's how Bigz got to watch Chester Jets play at Northgate back in the day.
I genuinely miss the place, and I'm not even joking when I say that.
It wasn't the best arena in the world with its wooden seating (padded on the far side though!!), concrete floor and no seating at each end and its somewhat questionable yellow tinted lighting, but I did fall in love with basketball there and I'll always have a soft spot for whatever incarnation of the Chester/Cheshire Jets/Phoenix is knocking around as a result. Despite my knees absolutely killing me for the 4 or so days after it was great to play there in front of my family who I first watched the BBL with there. I get far too romantic about a place that was in all honesty a bit of a dump but I loved it.
But yeah, they'd never allow a new team to go in and play in an arena like that, but I guess if Lions had that exact facility in the middle of London somewhere it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by sussexbantam on Nov 10, 2019 22:00:31 GMT
I have happy memories of Northgate too - not sure why though !
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Post by baldereagle on Nov 11, 2019 0:16:34 GMT
Mike Burton and Billy Singleton might have had something to do with it
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Post by sussexbantam on Nov 11, 2019 9:05:01 GMT
Mike Burton and Billy Singleton might have had something to do with it I was just before Billy Singleton - watched the 92-93 and 93-94 season whilst I was at Uni |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 11, 2019 9:11:03 GMT
Mike Burton and Billy Singleton might have had something to do with it Bill Singleton definitely did for me. Loved watching him play. IQ was up there with the best I've seen for a BBL big. |
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Post by reallyoldfeenixfan on Nov 11, 2019 10:15:45 GMT
I think I saw a post from Billy on the Phoenix Facebook site in the last couple of weeks or so. Wonderful memories!!! I remember a great fan ( Mickey Clifford) buying Billy's shirt at end of season kit sale, came down to the floor, he had to hitch it up to walk.
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