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Post by LTFan on Nov 5, 2019 15:46:58 GMT
So I’m starting this thread to continue a discussion that started off-topic in the Cup Schedule thread, and because we all love rumours and speculation…  According to Vince Macaulay in a podcast a couple of years ago, the London Lions have a 10 year tenancy agreement with GLL and the Copper Box running from the 2013/14 season until the 2022/13 season. Obviously he didn’t go into the details, but essentially Lions get to hire the Copper Box for an agreed reduced amount (although this may increase year-on-year, I don’t know) and GLL get a guaranteed income for ‘x’ number of dates for 10 years. However in recent seasons there have been signs this relationship may have a few issues, from rumours of Lions being unable to keep up with the payments to an increasing number of games having to be played at the UEL SportsDock. This is just the impression I get, but I don’t think this deal is working as well as planned and I suspect it won’t be renewed once finished. So, if for whatever reason the Lions moved away from the Copper Box (earlier than planned, at the end of the 10 year tenancy agreement, or sometime after) what other realistic venue options are available for a London based professional basketball team? I assumed Crystal Palace was always their back up plan, but due to the arrival of London City Royals even that option is no longer available. Your thoughts? |
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Post by spaghettihoops on Nov 5, 2019 16:28:34 GMT
Tbh four seasons seems pretty far into the future as far as most BBL planning goes. But I'm all for a speculative discussion anyway.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 5, 2019 16:50:41 GMT
Fair point… in 3 more seasons time Crystal Palace NSC might be available again!  It’s just that it only recently occurred to be that there really aren’t many venue options for a London based basketball team in the BBL if you were to take the Copper Box and Crystal Place out of the mix. |
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Post by sporty on Nov 5, 2019 17:33:32 GMT
Not in London I know, but the Spectrum in Guildford is a good venue if they are stuck
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Post by saintpat on Nov 5, 2019 18:04:05 GMT
I think most owners of basketball clubs will tell you the vast majority of sports centres are notoriously difficult to deal with, it's the same staff & same mentality whatever the size.
I'm not saying that some of the issues may not be of Lions making, however you would have thought a prestigious venue like the Box would have a better management & have more understanding of how to help on game nights than they clearly do. I've always felt that Lions have been treated as a nuisance to the venue as opposed to someone that should be celebrated & helped.
From basically forcing people out of the arena straight after to the game, to not opening enough food stations, they're just not interested in helping to provide a decent environment.
4 years is a massive time in BBL basketball, anything could happen by then, however due to the massive land costs, the one thing that's certainly not going to happen is Lions having their own venue!
I did think there was another East London venue somewhere but I can't remember where, before Lions moved to London there was going to be another club joining and I thought they had a venue in place but I have no idea where.
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Post by brummiedunk on Nov 5, 2019 19:09:16 GMT
Maybe the Lions could play in Milton Keynes ?!?!?!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 19:16:45 GMT
East London Royals were due to play at Mayesbrook Park Arena in Barking. I guess Vince has tried this option and they either aren't interested or want the moon on a stick as payment.
Lions fans have more experience of the Box than me, but everything I've seen and been told is that its management are reluctant hosts of Lions as part of the mythical Olympic legacy. Venues are generally a nightmare, I've written about it enough but most/many of their management want to do as little as possible or charge absolutely ridiculous amounts.
I'm sure there are options in London - does anyone really think Royals will last that long? - whether they want a basketball club who need 18-20 games in a 7-8 month period and are willing to be flexible and co-operative is the big question. |
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Post by dyb dyb on Nov 5, 2019 19:41:17 GMT
I think most owners of basketball clubs will tell you the vast majority of sports centres are notoriously difficult to deal with, it's the same staff & same mentality whatever the size. I'm not saying that some of the issues may not be of Lions making, however you would have thought a prestigious venue like the Box would have a better management & have more understanding of how to help on game nights than they clearly do. I've always felt that Lions have been treated as a nuisance to the venue as opposed to someone that should be celebrated & helped. From basically forcing people out of the arena straight after to the game, to not opening enough food stations, they're just not interested in helping to provide a decent environment. 4 years is a massive time in BBL basketball, anything could happen by then, however due to the massive land costs, the one thing that's certainly not going to happen is Lions having their own venue! I did think there was another East London venue somewhere but I can't remember where, before Lions moved to London there was going to be another club joining and I thought they had a venue in place but I have no idea where. Rings a little of what happens in Sheffield with both the Sharks and Sheffield's ice hockey team; the steelers. I've already posted lots on the main court at the EIS not been available and the Sharks evicted for other sports. Slightly understandable if not liked due to it being an international sporting venue. Now we find out that there are similar difficulties at Ponds Forge, with the Sharks having no home games in December. Also mixing game days between Sunday and Fridays. Rooms are available after games to meet and have a drink with the players-at a cost. Steelers play from the arena but often have to play at Ice Sheffield due to the arena having other things on. Typically Disney on ice is there at the moment. All of these venues are part of SIV of which the council are part of. Enough said already. Incidentally it was the opportunity to openly mix and chat with the players after games that helped both myself and the other half fall in love with the club so much. Just cant imagine something like that happening in football. |
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Post by ko25 on Nov 5, 2019 20:02:42 GMT
All of these venues are part of SIV of which the council are part of. Enough said already. What's SIV? |
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Post by everard on Nov 5, 2019 20:26:58 GMT
Sheffield International Venues ie Sheffield City Trust who run various venues across the city.
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Post by ko25 on Nov 6, 2019 10:01:01 GMT
Sheffield International Venues ie Sheffield City Trust who run various venues across the city. Ahhh right thanks. |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 6, 2019 10:21:53 GMT
East London Royals were due to play at Mayesbrook Park Arena in Barking. I guess Vince has tried this option and they either aren't interested or want the moon on a stick as payment.
And, staying in East London, the UEL SportsDock could perhaps be converted into a more permanent facility. Lions already train there and use it as an alternative when the Copper Box isn’t available. It would need quite some work to get it to the required BBL standard though, although I always suspect the BBL might be a bit lenient on this (at least initially) if it meant keeping a team in London. It’s also much more difficult to attract crowds to. But if it was the best option financially then I think it would at least be considered. |
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Post by everard on Nov 6, 2019 12:05:57 GMT
Is Pete Sprogis still involved with the Lions?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2019 12:54:38 GMT
East London Royals were due to play at Mayesbrook Park Arena in Barking. I guess Vince has tried this option and they either aren't interested or want the moon on a stick as payment.
And, staying in East London, the UEL SportsDock could perhaps be converted into a more permanent facility. Lions already train there and use it as an alternative when the Copper Box isn’t available. It would need quite some work to get it to the required BBL standard though, although I always suspect the BBL might be a bit lenient on this (at least initially) if it meant keeping a team in London. It’s also much more difficult to attract crowds to. But if it was the best option financially then I think it would at least be considered. What's in it for UEL? The place seems pretty well booked, anyway. Making structural changes will cost them money in the meantime. |
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Post by saintpat on Nov 6, 2019 14:20:22 GMT
Is Pete Sprogis still involved with the Lions? No, he bailed out, half way through season before last, left Lions in a very difficult position. |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 6, 2019 16:16:53 GMT
And, staying in East London, the UEL SportsDock could perhaps be converted into a more permanent facility. Lions already train there and use it as an alternative when the Copper Box isn’t available. It would need quite some work to get it to the required BBL standard though, although I always suspect the BBL might be a bit lenient on this (at least initially) if it meant keeping a team in London. It’s also much more difficult to attract crowds to. But if it was the best option financially then I think it would at least be considered. What's in it for UEL? The place seems pretty well booked, anyway. Making structural changes will cost them money in the meantime. What would be in it for UEL? About 20 guaranteed bookings throughout the season, guaranteed crowds who purchase food/drinks etc. But I admit I don’t know much about the UEL, perhaps they simply don’t need the additional business as you’ve suggested. It was just a thought. |
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Post by leamrider2 on Nov 6, 2019 17:09:21 GMT
Could always move back to Milton Keynes ...
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Post by spaghettihoops on Nov 6, 2019 17:17:59 GMT
SportsDock is in a terrible location, and doesn't have the capacity for food/drink trade. There's the MSG Sphere being built but that's never sounded like a goer. Sprogis came in talking about improving BBL marketing centrally, which I figure was never going to happen. Agree completely with the perceived attitude from those running the Copper Box. It's faintly ridiculous that there's some merit in discussing an alternative permanent venue; the Copper Box is pretty much ideally suited. If it doesn't work out then the Lions franchise might as well call it a day in London, and a serious look should be taken at what level basketball is working towards in this country. Still, not for three years. |
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Post by isthaturinal on Nov 6, 2019 18:56:10 GMT
I’d love it if they went back to the shopping centre,
Teams getting changed in empty shops,
Folk in John Lewis cafe watching for free from the window,
Oh those were the days......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2019 21:47:48 GMT
What's in it for UEL? The place seems pretty well booked, anyway. Making structural changes will cost them money in the meantime. What would be in it for UEL? About 20 guaranteed bookings throughout the season, guaranteed crowds who purchase food/drinks etc. But I admit I don’t know much about the UEL, perhaps they simply don’t need the additional business as you’ve suggested. It was just a thought. Lions being dumped with a 5pm on a Friday speak volumes about how much they need the trade. Venues just seem to be in a different planet when it comes to making money from food and drink, the Copperbox at the All-Stars being a great example - they could have sold far more if they'd bothered opening more kiosks and getting more staff. But venues often franchise out food/drink, anyway, so it's irrelevant to them what crowds arrive. I certainly can't see them coming up with capital expenditure (possible pun, there) to attract Lions. |
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Post by stevetino on Nov 6, 2019 22:25:00 GMT
What about sharing Crystal Palace with royals?
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Post by number23 on Nov 6, 2019 23:02:22 GMT
I’m not sure sharing Palace would work. It’s unlikely to be available for two clubs’ worth of games a season, and having so many games there could hit sales even more too. I think others have mentioned too many home games in quick succession can impact crowds?
Weren’t Barnet FC planning an indoor venue with spectator seating as part of their next expansion plan for the Hive? Or did that fall foul of planning permission/whatever?
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Post by baldereagle on Nov 7, 2019 8:32:14 GMT
I know nothing about London venues but cannot believe there’s so few options, with Eagles having just vacated a perfectly acceptable 2,800 capacity venue at Sports Central in the tiny little settlement of Newcastle.
Wembley Arena, the Excel centre, the O2 dome, Brixton ? Where did Leopards used to play ?
I guess money will be the barrier for the bigger venues but there must be plenty of options. Even Sport Central is only a 3 hour train journey away !
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Post by youngrocks on Nov 7, 2019 11:47:03 GMT
Does this say more about how lions are run than blaming others. We've heard rumours of players not being paid, Investors walking away. Maybe there is something in that.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 7, 2019 14:15:16 GMT
Agree completely with the perceived attitude from those running the Copper Box. It's faintly ridiculous that there's some merit in discussing an alternative permanent venue; the Copper Box is pretty much ideally suited. If it doesn't work out then the Lions franchise might as well call it a day in London, and a serious look should be taken at what level basketball is working towards in this country. Still, not for three years. If we assume Royals are no longer around when Lions hypothetically make such a decision… do we really think the BBL would just stand by and let it happen? The BBL needs a London franchise, so I suspect they’d decide to either invite a NBL team (because tat worked so well with London United and London Capital!) or do something to make Lions staying in London beneficial, or at least workable. |
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