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Post by faz on May 11, 2016 6:54:07 GMT
Just wondered if anyobne could shed on the reasons behind the differences in age groups and qualification guidelines for the above.
National league is now under 14s, under 16s and under 18s based on school year.
Regional tournaments are under 13s under 15s and under 17s based on calendar year birthdates.
Puzzles me.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 9:38:00 GMT
Another mess.
And the whole club registration process is running two months behind. I despair at times, i'll probably claim this is why I drink
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 9:45:40 GMT
I'm pretty sure the reasoning for the regional tournaments is so you can select a squad / identify players that will be together / be developed for a year prior to the relevant European competition which are calendar year based.
Makes some sense, but in no way is that a personal endorsement of the way the league or regional structure is run!
That doesn't answer why national leagues are school year though does it?! Same as other UK sports like football.
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Post by faz on May 11, 2016 11:18:06 GMT
Ok there's some sense in preparing a squad and training for it. What does seem daft though that last years under 13s regional development programme has finished. they will attend the under 15s and not get selected so last years elite then have a year of no enhanced development.
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Post by bobrider on May 11, 2016 11:18:26 GMT
Because England Basketball couldn't organise a p**s up in a brewery
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 11:39:30 GMT
That doesn't answer why national leagues are school year though does it?! Same as other UK sports like football. EB tried to change the junior leagues to the game format as the European game (ie based on the year the kids are born) about 6/7 years ago, but the clubs revolted and forced a climbdown. I can see why kids want to play in their school year, but it really doesn't help the national teams. Maybe the answer is an elite level where they go with European convention, and at a more local level they stay in school years
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 11:48:10 GMT
Didn't see this one coming. Junior League structures for next season are now out and there will not be an U14 Premier competition in 16/17. With the U13 leagues scrapped the year before there are now around 70 teams competing in the U14 national league competition. This is a great number of teams / players but the spread of age and ability across these regionally structured leagues could see some horrendous mismatches.
As an aside, as a coach in the U16 Prem, pretty surprised with some of the absences.
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Post by faz on Jun 22, 2016 12:21:46 GMT
Agree about the under 14s situation. I believe there was a lack of applicants for a premier position so I can't blame EB for this. A big shame for the stronger teams as they could have very few competitive games with many being less than competitive and neither side benefiting from the encounter. Your point about the age split is well made. A year at this age makes a massive difference in physicality. I think the top 5 teams in the north west development league consisted of a number of genuine under 14s.
I looked at the prem north last year at under 14s and I think 6 sides had teams in the development leagues. I think Sheffield, Wire, Magic, Giants, Derby and Leeds did.
With development sides having their own play off competition maybe clubs have decided to stay in development as an easier option? It may be better to return to the previous set up where conference teams joined the prem at the play off stage or return to the under 14s and under 13s format.
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Post by Samgray on Jun 22, 2016 20:16:54 GMT
U14 is now local league... literally. With a few national league teams thrown in here and there for good measure. It's regional but with the wrong names however as Manchester Giants and Stockport in the midlands conference.
In my opinion it highlights everything wrong with the current structure, too many teams in small areas meaning there is no national league.
Until teams work together and create regional pyramid structures within junior basketball nothing will change in terms of our development of juniors. I actually feel sorry for Basketball England as it's very difficult for them to get involved with inter club politics.
To explain my point within 20 miles of my house these are the teams in the national league
Cheshire wire
Cheshire wire green
Cheshire wire white
Lancashire spinners bury
Lancashire spinners rossendale
Manchester Giants white
Manchester magic
Manchester magic 2
Oldham Eagles
Manchester Giants
Manchester Giants green
Stockport Falcons
Stockport Falcons 2
Fantastic from a participation point of view but i worry about our ability to sufficiently cater for our elite players in this situation.
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kol
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Post by kol on Jun 22, 2016 20:20:03 GMT
I find it really strange that BE have dumped the u14 Premier Leagues after one season. I thought the leagues, at least the south, was a vast improvement on previous years and put the better teams generally together. With the top teams/clubs now spread around 3-4 leagues there are going to be far fewer competitive games. Most years there generally is a vast difference in quality between clubs. From a development point of view a close defeat is better than a blow out win.
I can't believe there wouldn't be enough teams wanting to play premier league - my club certainly wanted it to continue. What we have now are leagues with multiple teams from one club in the same division. A lot of clubs, including my own tend to enter two teams at each age group with the Premier team made up of the upper year players with a few younger ones who are capable with the development league team made up of lower year players and maybe a few older ones not up to the standard of the Prem team. With teams from the same club in the same league we're now going to have the development team made up of generally younger players up against some of the best teams a year older and who would have been Prem. Going to be some big disparities.
On the difference between age groups for club basketball and representative basketball I quite like it as it mixes up who are the older players. In club basketball the September borns have the advantage and for representative basketball the January borns do. Being the oldest in an age group can make a big difference at the younger age groups. The September to December kids need to work harder to make a regional team. Still tough on those born in August though. And generally, the really talented players will make it through regardless of their month of birth.
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Post by Samgray on Jun 23, 2016 21:26:09 GMT
Fair play to BE, they took on board criticisms and there is now premier conference 👏
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Post by faz on Jun 23, 2016 22:36:22 GMT
Not seen any update. You're obviously talking under 14s. Whose in the prem north and north west conference?
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kol
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Post by kol on Jun 24, 2016 8:23:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 9:25:56 GMT
BE appear to take the path of least resistance and least work
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Post by faz on Jun 25, 2016 5:06:46 GMT
Fair play to BE, they took on board criticisms and there is now premier conference 👏 Small league but at least they should get a lot competitive games. With 7 teams would they play each other 2,3 or 4 times? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 7:52:29 GMT
Relatively new to the structure, I have a fairly simplistic view on it. For me EB need to concentrate on getting local league youth basketball in a suitable state. It's non existent in Leicestershire and I know there are plenty of kids who would want to play in local competition if it was available. By that I mean a structured league of some sort. There are 4 local clubs that play 'national league' at some level. All CITY based. Basketball needs to look beyond the 'inner city' to start recruiting new players and fans to the game. I appreciate the great community work it does and long may it continue but it needs to look elsewhere if it wants to expand and attract the funding for the future. We are lucky to have a passionate school teacher (who coaches with a city team) who works at a 'county' school. That school had 6 teams in county finals (4 X winners) and 1 team national runners up. Most of the kids do travel into the city to play for the coaches league team but I know there are plenty of other kids who would join a local team if there was one available. Not sure what power or sway EB has in all this. I know the BBL team has suggested a centralised local league to be held at the LCS, but other teams are wary of the motives and who the 'money' generated goes to. Also historically the other non bbl teams lose players to the apparent glamour of the franchise. If EB was to grip this then perhaps things could move forward. There are really good people working at youth and community levels in all of these clubs. Hopefully a fresh outlook (I know there have been some 'structure' changes at the Riders to try and help this) will enable Leicestershire.
Get the local scene sorted and the National structure would surely benefit?
Is this just a Leicestershire issue or is there similar elsewhere?
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Post by Samgray on Jun 26, 2016 17:56:05 GMT
Fair play to BE, they took on board criticisms and there is now premier conference 👏 Small league but at least they should get a lot competitive games. With 7 teams would they play each other 2,3 or 4 times? Yeah I think it should be good for all involved, and for those in the development leagues who shouldn't be put in a position where winning or losing by 100 is a possibility. I agree re local league and it isn't just Leicestershire. I feel the key for development is ensuring an appropriate level of competition regardless of age or gender. I think it needs to be a priority to ensure more parity within leagues which is difficult with u12 teams in an u14 league. Regardless of talking levels very few 10/11 year olds are physically capable of competing against top u14 players-not helpful for anyone. |
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Post by Samgray on Jun 26, 2016 17:57:07 GMT
And as far as I'm aware they will play 3 times.
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Post by faz on Jun 26, 2016 20:09:54 GMT
I think the local league structure is important when young. In Warrington there is s fairly lively structure at years5/6, 7/8, 9/10 , 11/12 and older ages as well.
There are a number of clubs from Warrington, St. Helens northwitch
Wire mainly recruit from those teams. I travel 20 miles from Chester where there isn't a structure outside of Phoenix which seems to be blossoming
Despite joining wire most of the lads continue to play local league although once training at national league there is a disparity in abilities and they don't tend to train with the clubs due to wire commitments.
[
Certainly important at the younger ages and nice to have games post national league season. There are also ball halls in Stockport and Bury and I'm guessing a similar structure
I believe Giants have loads of kids and run their own leagues and I believe there are leagues run out of the amaechi centre
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Post by faz on Jun 26, 2016 20:20:36 GMT
Small league but at least they should get a lot competitive games. With 7 teams would they play each other 2,3 or 4 times? Yeah I think it should be good for all involved, and for those in the development leagues who shouldn't be put in a position where winning or losing by 100 is a possibility. I agree re local league and it isn't just Leicestershire. I feel the key for development is ensuring an appropriate level of competition regardless of age or gender. I think it needs to be a priority to ensure more parity within leagues which is difficult with u12 teams in an u14 league. Regardless of talking levels very few 10/11 year olds are physically capable of competing against top u14 players-not helpful for anyone. I believe you e the under 14s prem next year? What do you thinks best for a kids development: limited minutes in the prem or big minutes in the d league? |
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Post by Samgray on Jun 26, 2016 21:25:12 GMT
Yeah I am coaching in that, I think it depends on the individual but I think wherever possible the players should play at the level that sufficiently challenges them on a regular basis. I think in a lot of cases it's better for players with the ability to challenge themselves at the Highest level they can, be that local, development or premiership. I'm hopeful that we can ensure all players in our squad next season will be given sufficient opportunity/court time to develop and I've tried to ensure I've done this each year I've coached but in no way have I managed to always get it right! i think the most important thing is that players are in an environment that they are happy with and that they get a style of coaching that ensures they continue to develop. I definitely think that playing very limited minutes is detrimental in 99% of cases and I know as a club it is something we need to continue to work on.
I'd be interested to know your thoughts?
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jun 26, 2016 22:43:53 GMT
Bit off topic but these kids love watching the US basketball films where they see 2 on 2 basketball and 3 on 3 basketball stuff
Also they play NBA together and that has street basketball - again 2 on 2 and 3 on 3
It's cool. It's fun and they like the vibe about it.
I guess it's like 5 a side football compared to 11 a side
I think it would be very popular if an organisation created more of this for the young kids to get involved in
Less players, more teams, more competition
Not to compete with normal basketball but as an add on. It would grow the interest
In GB in the winter we have 11 a side type football but in the summer it's loads of 5 a side tournaments
Which the kids often enjoy more
There's an opportunity with the younger ones out there for someone with a similar concept in basketball
IMO
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jun 26, 2016 22:44:45 GMT
I've seen flyers about it for older kids but not the younger ones
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Post by faz on Jun 26, 2016 23:57:41 GMT
Yeah I am coaching in that, I think it depends on the individual but I think wherever possible the players should play at the level that sufficiently challenges them on a regular basis. I think in a lot of cases it's better for players with the ability to challenge themselves at the Highest level they can, be that local, development or premiership. I'm hopeful that we can ensure all players in our squad next season will be given sufficient opportunity/court time to develop and I've tried to ensure I've done this each year I've coached but in no way have I managed to always get it right! i think the most important thing is that players are in an environment that they are happy with and that they get a style of coaching that ensures they continue to develop. I definitely think that playing very limited minutes is detrimental in 99% of cases and I know as a club it is something we need to continue to work on. I'd be interested to know your thoughts? I would agree, play at the highest level but only if you get the opportunity to play reasonable minutes. I know as a club we previously haven't always done that which has led to discontentment and very good players choosing to move elsewhere. If a game is won or lost then the bench should be played. If it wasn't for the bench the elite players wouldn't have players to scrimmage and train with so they are important members of the team. I think everyone understands that when it comes to championship deciding games then the main players will play big minutes but otherwise the bench should get minutes. As a mark of respect as well as giving them the chance to impress/ improve the bench should be used. There may be a point as you get older that you've reached your potential and you just want to play ball. At that point settle for development and enjoy playing. Very critical period at 13/14 as to what level you will play at. It seems to get harder to keep players at 16 as they move to basketball colleges. You have the advantage of offering EBL whilst Phoenix dangle the BBL roster card. I know that's a different subject but and I guess the club either has to be able to offer something more or recognise that you're competing up to 16s and then you are a development process for the lads to move on. Tough as a club. Would college ball now be of a higher standard than the 18s? Tough being a coach, a player or a dad? |
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Post by faz on Jun 30, 2016 19:28:54 GMT
Further changes to the leagues and pleased that the north prem has another addition.
Looks as though the north west 1 and 2 may be split on age which should bennefit all. Guess Birmiongham and Shropshire will be pleased they've returned to the midlands and won't be travelling north for most of their away games. Good job EB.
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