MrWorldwide
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Favourite Team: Plymouth Raiders
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Post by MrWorldwide on Mar 20, 2021 18:00:23 GMT
Curious for peoples opinions on this; which is the more prestigious competition to win in the BBL in your opinion? I always thought it was the BBL Cup, as this was made to replace the National Cup after BBL teams withdrew due to disagreements with the amount of imports allowed. However talking about it with a friend, and comparing them to similar competitions in football (FA Cup vs. League Cup), would the Trophy not be the more prestigious as, like in football's FA Cup, it is... - the older of the two competitions, starting in 1987 vs. BBL Cup starting in 2003, so therefore has more history
- a straight knockout, winner goes through/loser goes home (aside from the Semis) vs. the BBL Cup using group formats to begin with, allowing for teams to possibly lose a game and still advance
- features some invited teams from lower leagues, so therefore is more reflective of a "national" cup (who is the 'best in the land') and also allows for giant killings, such as Solent last season
What's everyone else's thoughts? would be interesting to see if players see one competition as more prestigious than the other too
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Post by MansfieldMike on Mar 20, 2021 18:46:54 GMT
BBL Cup
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 19:21:08 GMT
My rankings will always be playoffs, then cup then trophy. Unless of course we win tomorrow then it'll be trophy, then trophy, then trophy
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Post by baldereagle on Mar 20, 2021 19:49:05 GMT
No it's cup then cup then cup then an unlikely playoffs
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Post by dandayr on Mar 20, 2021 23:19:46 GMT
Trophy - cause hosted in Glasgow the last few years of crowds aloud
thought of them as equals tbh
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Post by rideralex on Mar 20, 2021 23:44:18 GMT
The cup feels more prestigious than the trophy. In usual times the cup finals day is a slightly smaller scale replica of the play off finals day with all of the associated gimmicks whereas the trophy final is just played as though it is another game with very little effort made in terms of game day experience. In a similar respect I don't think it has ever been necessary for anyone to pay anything like the headline price to obtain tickets for the trophy final even at little notice or in the designated areas for the fans of the participating fans whereas it is rare that many discounted tickets are available (to the public) for either of the other finals.
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Post by bullets92 on Mar 21, 2021 8:36:31 GMT
The cup was always the same place as the playoffs (before they started using the O2) and they used to pass the trophy final around a bit pre-Glasgow.
So Birmingham >>>>> 😝
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Post by LTFan on Mar 21, 2021 12:20:44 GMT
In terms of ‘tough-ness’ to win I’ve always ranked them - Championship, Play-Offs, Cup, Trophy.
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milehigh
Bench Player
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take
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Post by milehigh on Mar 21, 2021 18:52:48 GMT
As the BBL Cup is Played in Birmingham, it tends to have a better atmosphere, as it is easier for fans, and school groups from all over the country to attend as a day trip. The Trophy final, in Glasgow rquires a weekend away, and a very late return home on Sunday night for anyone in England.
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Post by youngrocks on Mar 21, 2021 20:42:12 GMT
Isnt the trophy older?
I see them as equal events. Both events are marketed vastly differently having been at botb a good number of times. Cup seems to go to more local clubs and group bookings that way and trophy seems to target the glasgow family market.
However since my team loses finals i dont care😤
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Mar 21, 2021 22:24:18 GMT
Depending on how you want to interpret the history of British Basketball (and ive been doing a lot of thinking on this subject lately) then the Cup arguably dates back to 1936. But thats if you consider the BBL Cup a continuation of the National Cup of 1978 to 2003, and again if you consider the Cup of 1978 to be a contination of the Championship of 1936 to 1978.
The Trophy some say goes back to the Anglo-Scottish Cup of 84/85 and again arguably (using some imagination here) can trace its history back even further into the 70's via the BIBF Cup which I think starts in 1977 but maybe before.
British Basketball certainly has an obsession with playing two Cups, chopping and changing its organiser, its format, the time of year its played and so on. Its now got to the point where the Cup and Trophy have become literally the same and therefore my answer to this thread is that today neither the Cup nor Trophy feel bigger than the other.
To top it off British Basketball fans also have an (in my opinion really frustrating) obsession with crowning the league champion as the main prize to win making the Play Offs feel like a third Cup. Having said that its hard to argue against such fans when almost the entire league qualifys for it and the rounds are too short. If I was in charge I would make the Play Offs just top 4, making it feel like a competition only for the elite, and I would also end giving medals and Trophies to the League winners. Really try and propel the Play Off Final to the top of fans and players priorities. Maybe then it becomes big, big enough perhaps to actually sell out the O2, big enough that perhaps TV companies pay for the rights based on just that one event, similar to how the Football Leagues TV rights value is mostly weighted towards certain events like the Play Offs and League Cup etc. It might just be a tactic that finally brings TV income back in. I am still under the impression that we still give Sky the coverage for free, but might be out of date with that one.
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Post by LTFan on Mar 22, 2021 0:22:16 GMT
I am still under the impression that we still give Sky the coverage for free, but might be out of date with that one My understanding is that in this current deal the BBL don’t give away the rights for free, and Sky do pay for them. However, it’s not a large sum and it basically covers the production cost of the coverage, so the BBL aren’t making any real direct financial profit. The real value of the Sky deal is increasing awareness of the league. |
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Mar 22, 2021 7:30:46 GMT
Interesting, i think thats better than previously as i think we used to have to cover the production cost as well in effect paying for the coverage but still a wise move nonetheless as you say to increase awareness/prestige etc.
I still stand by my tactics above. I still think these finals have far more power to increase viewership than a league title race can. But when you hold 3 very similar ones they kind of cancel each other out. If we skip 1 and/or find a way to push one into the limelight, it would be brave but could prove important in the long run.
Leagues title races can be so boring, real big let downs, most teams out of it within weeks. They say you can still compete for play off places but when you have already crowned the league champion the true champion then it takes a huge shine off of bothering.
Say what you want about the old conferences between 99 and 02 but at least the play offs actually mattered then. There wa then no league winner so it forced the fans to finally accept the play offs for what they should be, the determinant of its true champion. The only format they have ever used that achieved this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 8:23:20 GMT
Curious for peoples opinions on this; which is the more prestigious competition to win in the BBL in your opinion? I always thought it was the BBL Cup, as this was made to replace the National Cup after BBL teams withdrew due to disagreements with the amount of imports allowed. However talking about it with a friend, and comparing them to similar competitions in football (FA Cup vs. League Cup), would the Trophy not be the more prestigious as, like in football's FA Cup, it is... - the older of the two competitions, starting in 1987 vs. BBL Cup starting in 2003, so therefore has more history
- a straight knockout, winner goes through/loser goes home (aside from the Semis) vs. the BBL Cup using group formats to begin with, allowing for teams to possibly lose a game and still advance
- features some invited teams from lower leagues, so therefore is more reflective of a "national" cup (who is the 'best in the land') and also allows for giant killings, such as Solent last season
What's everyone else's thoughts? would be interesting to see if players see one competition as more prestigious than the other too
Neither seem to have its own identity. The Trophy used to be a group stage competition but now its knockout. The BBL Cup was a knockout comp but now its a group thing. i presume both competitions make money because its questionable whether the BBL needs two competitions. Its a shame that we cant have a proper national cup with BBL, D1 and enough D2 sides to make it 32 teams, but after Reading withdrew from the trophy again, i can see why their reluctant. |
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Post by LTFan on Mar 22, 2021 9:44:56 GMT
Interesting, i think thats better than previously as i think we used to have to cover the production cost as well in effect paying for the coverage but still a wise move nonetheless as you say to increase awareness/prestige etc. Correct. There's actually money coming in from Sky with this deal... having said that more money is being spent on the coverage than ever before. So the deal doesn't provide any direct financial benefit, it's more about other benefits it delivers, i.e. exposure. Having said all that, less people are watching on Sky than when it was on the BBC. But all this is probably a discussion for the Sky Sports broadcasting thread.  |
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milehigh
Bench Player
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take
Posts: 184
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Post by milehigh on Mar 22, 2021 10:40:08 GMT
The focus on the League title is understandable, as it takes a lot more work, commitment and consitancy to be successful over 30 games than the 5 or 6 involved in a cup competeition.
Riders are currently winning 85% of their league games, surely it is right that that is rewarded and recognised?
For me, and I'd think many others, the League and then the Play offs are the most important trophies in the season.
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Post by drivethebody on Mar 22, 2021 10:46:54 GMT
Interesting, i think thats better than previously as i think we used to have to cover the production cost as well in effect paying for the coverage but still a wise move nonetheless as you say to increase awareness/prestige etc. Correct. There's actually money coming in from Sky with this deal... having said that more money is being spent on the coverage than ever before. So the deal doesn't provide any direct financial benefit, it's more about other benefits it delivers, i.e. exposure. Having said all that, less people are watching on Sky than when it was on the BBC. But all this is probably a discussion for the Sky Sports broadcasting thread. Sky figures of 3500 for yesterday’s Trophy -read it on Twitter earlier but can’t find who tweeted it- poss deleted now? May have been Hoopsfix, Dan R or Mark Brit (they’re the guys who normallly pop up when I do My morning scan over a number 2 :-) (Too much info)?? |
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sm11
Rookie
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Post by sm11 on Mar 22, 2021 11:19:15 GMT
Your right Mile High. It is understandable. Like I said above its hard to argue against them.
Its a battle the sport has faced in the past. Having read into it a bit, when the Play Offs were introduced in 1979 it was given the same name and Trophy as the National Championship had used up until that point. It was only the top 4 going straight into a Final Four format at Wembley. The winner of this new Play Offs/Championship would take our place in the European Champions Cup (now Euroleague) ahead of the league winner which had been given the prize up to that point. At that point the league was an 11 team league playing each other twice. The league title was won by only a 1 game distance so it wasnt the crime of the century when Crystal Palace took the European Cup place over Doncaster (although some people im sure it as a crime lol). If they werent crying foul at that point the may have been crying foul when Sunderland won the Play Offs in 1981 6 games behind league champions Birmingham. By 83-84 however the league was now 13 teams, playing each other 3 times for 36 games. It was then deemed too controversial to give the European Cup place to the winner of the play offs so the league winner was from there onwards given the place. There was an extract on facebook from Basketball Magazine at the time in which the writer was explaining how the fans were becoming confused over how to feel over the competitions and who should be seen as 'the champions'.
But like I alude to above. The thing is about a league is that if a team starts 0-3, or 1-4, or 2-6 and its a long way back already reducing its season to fighting for Cups which just doesnt do it for every fan. Some fans (like me) want to win the big one, the one that everyone else wants, they dont want the success to be belittled by another saying that they won something more superior.
A top 4 play off may be an answer to that but then again i might be in a minority when i think its a problem.
Play Offs can be really powerful. The Football League Play Offs are huge. Both Rugby Union and League have embraced such a format as well.
People have said before on here that they think a lot of the average BBL crowd has probably never even seen a league table. Thats a bad thing in my oppinion. It means our competitions dont seem to engaging them. I dont think that the subject of Leagues Titles and Play Offs and how many Cups etc should be ignored or underestimated.
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Post by Solly on Mar 22, 2021 15:27:57 GMT
In order of importance -
1. Playoff Winners - this is the climax of the season and will rightly attract the biggest crowds, coverage and most prestigious venue (versus other venues being used at that time, before anyone jabbers on about Coventry Skydome not necessarily being the class that might be expected). While the NBA has massively more playoff matches to justify its rightful precedence, the regular season is still largely about deciding playoff seedings - a similar scenario (on a much smaller scale) for the BBL.
2. League Champions - nice to win, but can be secured by showing early doors form when other teams are still finding their feet with their rosters. Can lose a few late on and still win it. The Playoffs are the true test of who can get it done at the right time. A few years back I can recollect Leicester being upended by lowly Sheffield in the first round - hardly a worthy display from the table-toppers.
3. BBL Cup - now eons ahead of the Trophy given the amount of matches involved, but would still rank ahead anyway because of tradition - BBL Cup = FA Cup, BBL Trophy = League Cup.
4. BBL Trophy.
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Post by Steven McTowelie on Mar 22, 2021 18:14:10 GMT
I find myself caring less and less about both with every passing season. I've never liked the Trophy in it's current format. Don't like Emirates as a finals venue and don't like the way the lower level teams are integrated into the competition. I know Solent did very well last season and if we saw that sort of thing happen even semi-regularly my attitude would be different. But we don't. The 2019/20 Kestrels are a massive outlier. The long term record of lower level clubs in the Trophy is pretty hopeless. And the recent inclusion of 'Team Wales' and a Scottish league representative has seemed utterly pointless. British basketball just doesn't seem deep enough to throw up Cinderella stories more than once in a blue moon, meaning that all the inclusion of these lower level teams typically does is create massive draw biases.
If we want an early season cup competition with a round robin phase I think the Trophy would be perfect for this. For whatever reason the Cup was chosen instead and it now just feels like extended preseason to me. Given that we're only eliminating three teams in the process the group stage feels long winded and tedious. And the obviously imbalanced fashion in which the teams were divided up this year didn't do wonders for the competitions credibility either in my view.
It's true that any given year only a small number of teams will be seriously involved in the 'league race.' And that those teams will generally have a pretty familiar feel to them. This applies to most leagues in the world really but I've never seen it put forward as something that diminishes the achievement of winning them. Any team that starts the season 1-4 or 2-6 was never going to be anywhere good enough to contend anyway.
The fact that winning the league is officially, I believe, the only route into BCL qualification for BBL clubs is a big part of the reason why that competition takes precedence over all others for me. Unfortunately I doubt Riders will be pursuing Europe next season even if we do win the league from here. I'm guessing Lions will be diving straight back in regardless though if they only manage a runner-up finish, I figure they'll potentially have to go through Europe Cup qualification? Could be another very short campaign for them if so.
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Post by massiveridersfan on Mar 23, 2021 6:52:15 GMT
In order of importance -
1. Playoff Winners - this is the climax of the season and will rightly attract the biggest crowds, coverage and most prestigious venue (versus other venues being used at that time, before anyone jabbers on about Coventry Skydome not necessarily being the class that might be expected). While the NBA has massively more playoff matches to justify its rightful precedence, the regular season is still largely about deciding playoff seedings - a similar scenario (on a much smaller scale) for the BBL.
2. League Champions - nice to win, but can be secured by showing early doors form when other teams are still finding their feet with their rosters. Can lose a few late on and still win it. The Playoffs are the true test of who can get it done at the right time. A few years back I can recollect Leicester being upended by lowly Sheffield in the first round - hardly a worthy display from the table-toppers.
3. BBL Cup - now eons ahead of the Trophy given the amount of matches involved, but would still rank ahead anyway because of tradition - BBL Cup = FA Cup, BBL Trophy = League Cup.
4. BBL Trophy.
Reverse the order of 1 & 2 and I think that is where I am in terms of importance. |
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Post by massiveridersfan on Mar 23, 2021 11:57:09 GMT
In order of importance -
1. Playoff Winners - this is the climax of the season and will rightly attract the biggest crowds, coverage and most prestigious venue (versus other venues being used at that time, before anyone jabbers on about Coventry Skydome not necessarily being the class that might be expected). While the NBA has massively more playoff matches to justify its rightful precedence, the regular season is still largely about deciding playoff seedings - a similar scenario (on a much smaller scale) for the BBL.
2. League Champions - nice to win, but can be secured by showing early doors form when other teams are still finding their feet with their rosters. Can lose a few late on and still win it. The Playoffs are the true test of who can get it done at the right time. A few years back I can recollect Leicester being upended by lowly Sheffield in the first round - hardly a worthy display from the table-toppers.
3. BBL Cup - now eons ahead of the Trophy given the amount of matches involved, but would still rank ahead anyway because of tradition - BBL Cup = FA Cup, BBL Trophy = League Cup.
4. BBL Trophy.
Your point about Sharks beating Riders in the playoffs surely explains why we have them - it's not a foregone conclusion that the league winners will also bag the playoff trophy. There's hope for all those teams in the top 8. That also stops the latter part of the season becoming pointless if one team is top of the heap with a wide points margin. |
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Post by Solly on Mar 23, 2021 14:34:54 GMT
massive riders can - your point about my point about Sharks beating Riders just reinforces my point.
No one, apart from fans of the League Champions, remembers who the League Champions were. And that's because it's primarily about jockeying for the play offs.
The Shield gets presented at the match when the championship is decided, to the recognition of very few apart from winning fans and those involved.
Compare that with more than 10,000 in attendance at Wembley or O2 as well as live coverage by Sky, tells you which is the lasting memory.
I know that many can recall the Giants Vs Sharks title-decider at the MEN, but that was a rare exception when the League Championship was a big deal.
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mac
Bench Player
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Post by mac on Mar 23, 2021 19:07:11 GMT
Has to be league first, best team overall wins. Play-offs next but this is just a knockout competition where 8th place can (and have) won. Billy Mims did it with Riders in 2001. Even changing the format it is still just a knockout. Next best knockout is Cup followed by Trophy. Having said all that, I am just glad to have won something this season.
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Mar 24, 2021 10:56:21 GMT
Can I just say that its such a relief that no one is ranking the Cup or Trophy ahead of the Play Offs. I can remember this conversation coming up when I first started lurking here in 02-03 and almost everyone was down playing the play offs.
There were even a few massive fools that were ranking the Cup and Trophy ahead of the Play Offs at that point purely because you had to win more games to win the Cup/Tro rather than the Play Offs. Those massive fools were however obviously forgetting that you still had to win a dozen or so league games to get in to the Play Offs lol. I wonder if some of them still come on here.
Im also glad to here that some are ranking the Play Offs ahead of the League which as I mention elsewhere is how I think it should be.
Another factor in the Play Offs vs League debate is that in other countries round Europe it is the Play Off winner who is seen as the champion. They may have better reasons for that (3/5/7 game series Play Off rounds) but either way Clubs who are recruiting players from elsewhere will be partly ranking a potential recruits abilities on whether he is winning championships in front of him and will be looking at whether he won the Play Offs not whether he was first in the regular season, they will be approaching it that way because thats how they do it in their country and all the other countries they look into.
Sorry to take this thread into a League vs Play Offs debate rather than the title but it is still a related subject.
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