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Post by drivethebody on Apr 18, 2021 20:38:12 GMT
All this talk about the European football super league at the moment.
All the detractors saying a 12 team league with no relegation or promotion is a joke and it would be a laughing stock.
Got me thinking about the BBL
Similar I guess? Surely time for promotion and relegation?
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Post by faz on Apr 18, 2021 20:56:56 GMT
Does the NBA need promotion and relegation?
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Post by drivethebody on Apr 18, 2021 21:05:33 GMT
30 teams
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Post by youngrocks on Apr 18, 2021 21:20:55 GMT
Is this serious?
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Post by casualhook on Apr 18, 2021 22:12:31 GMT
Could D1 teams afford to go up? Could BBL teams afford to go down? Does British basketball need more teams going bust?
Feel like no is the answer to all these questions
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Post by reallyoldfeenixfan on Apr 19, 2021 3:29:20 GMT
Can't see any teams clamouring to join the BBL at the moment.
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Post by drivethebody on Apr 19, 2021 7:22:01 GMT
Just initiating a debate. All the pundits saying a 12 team league where they only enter due to financial viability and play each other time and time again ad nauseum made me think of BBL. I know US sports always have the franchise system which works there but promotion and relegation should be desired thing in a sporting context/contest surely? Surely Solent /Hemel / Worthing have some ambition and want to be the best in the country at some stage surely? |
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Post by drivethebody on Apr 19, 2021 7:26:24 GMT
Just initiating a debate. All the pundits saying a 12 team league where they only enter due to financial viability and play each other time and time again ad nauseum made me think of BBL. I know US sports always have the franchise system which works there but promotion and relegation should be desired thing in a sporting context/contest surely? Surely Solent /Hemel / Worthing have some ambition and want to be the best in the country at some stage surely? |
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Post by number23 on Apr 19, 2021 7:29:55 GMT
I’m in favour of promotion/relegation over a closed shop, but I feel it only works when conditions are right. In football, rugby and other sports where promotion is common, there’s a second tier of professional clubs where the top clubs are ready to make the step up and be (broadly) competitive and facilities that are suitable to do so.
I’d argue basketball is in a similar position to football’s National League/Conference in the early 80s; there’s a clear ‘top’ of the lower league pyramid, but standards need to improve before even conditional promotion is a viable long-term prospect. I think there are ways we could get to that point - a debate we’ve had before, so I won’t repeat it now - but the required political will seems to be lacking.
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Post by tonyleopard on Apr 19, 2021 8:28:27 GMT
The way the BBL is currently set up, there can be no automatic promotion/relegation. It is a franchise system the same as in Super League rugby league. There are minimum standards of arena, i think there has to be a ladies team attached and the payment of franchise fee. I believe this is around £150k though can be staggered.
Solent appear to have the money but the arena is not to standard.
Hemel are probably the most ready off court but arena is not to standard.
Reading have applied a few times but arena is not to standard.
Worthing probably have a long term ambition to rejoin the BBL with Zaire now in charge but doubtful their arena is up to current standards.
The one team in Div 1 who have an arena that is better than virtually all BBL teams is Essex Rebels. But the Uni wouldn't fund the jump.
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Post by connors on Apr 19, 2021 8:33:52 GMT
Overall I would love to see basketball in England (or UK) be structured more like the traditional football pyramid that we have now. I think it works best and is something fans of sport in this country can get behind. However I feel you need to look more at Rugby Union to see the challenges of trying to maintain such a model when there is such an obvious gulf in class between the top 2 divisions; let alone those lower down. I was a season ticket holder at Wasps for many years before I headed north and they followed a part of the way up the M1! Each season one club went down and was almost guaranteed to  straight back up after a season of winning games usually by 40-50pt margins. Meanwhile the team that came up would often be the whipping boy and go back down unless they were lucky that one of the other teams fell on hard times. There is regular talk now of making the RPL a closed shop not dissimilar to the BBL. Our sport is not financially in the same league as RFU. We have to be realistic and although I have argued on this board for relegation and promotion ultimately I know it would not really work with the BBL. I think for it to have a chance it would require a backwards step to hopefully move forwards step.....what do I mean? Well you would have to remove all the restrictions that stop very good teams like Solent and TVC from competing in the top division. So no restrictions on stadiums, buys ins or anything else. That then in the short term almost certainly damages the existing BBL clubs (turkeys voting for Xmas). I'm waffling now so I will stop but hopefully I made some sense!!! |
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Post by drivethebody on Apr 19, 2021 8:34:23 GMT
The way the BBL is currently set up, there can be no automatic promotion/relegation. It is a franchise system the same as in Super League rugby league. There are minimum standards of arena, i think there has to be a ladies team attached and the payment of franchise fee. I believe this is around £150k though can be staggered. Solent appear to have the money but the arena is not to standard. Hemel are probably the most ready off court but arena is not to standard. Reading have applied a few times but arena is not to standard. Worthing probably have a long term ambition to rejoin the BBL with Zaire now in charge but doubtful their arena is up to current standards. The one team in Div 1 who have an arena that is better than virtually all BBL teams is Essex Rebels. But the Uni wouldn't fund the jump. Which is awful. What’s the point in say Solent carrying on? What’s their raison d’etre? To win a minor league year after year? Fans thrive on the possibility of promotion. (I understand BBL is a closed shop and their silly ground rules etc). Must be embarrassing when Solent win a trophy in a league where clubs don’t bother to turn up for fixtures at the end of the season as Dave Hersey has said. |
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Post by drivethebody on Apr 19, 2021 8:35:36 GMT
Overall I would love to see basketball in England (or UK) be structured more like the traditional football pyramid that we have now. I think it works best and is something fans of sport in this country can get behind. However I feel you need to look more at Rugby Union to see the challenges of trying to maintain such a model when there is such an obvious gulf in class between the top 2 divisions; let alone those lower down. I was a season ticket holder at Wasps for many years before I headed north and they followed a part of the way up the M1! Each season one club went down and was almost guaranteed to straight back up after a season of winning games usually by 40-50pt margins. Meanwhile the team that came up would often be the whipping boy and go back down unless they were lucky that one of the other teams fell on hard times. There is regular talk now of making the RPL a closed shop not dissimilar to the BBL. Our sport is not financially in the same league as RFU. We have to be realistic and although I have argued on this board for relegation and promotion ultimately I know it would not really work with the BBL. I think for it to have a chance it would require a backwards step to hopefully move forwards step.....what do I mean? Well you would have to remove all the restrictions that stop very good teams like Solent and TVC from competing in the top division. So no restrictions on stadiums, buys ins or anything else. That then in the short term almost certainly damages the existing BBL clubs (turkeys voting for Xmas). I'm waffling now so I will stop but hopefully I made some sense!!! Absolutely. |
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Post by LTFan on Apr 19, 2021 8:45:35 GMT
The way the BBL is currently set up, there can be no automatic promotion/relegation. It is a franchise system the same as in Super League rugby league. There are minimum standards of arena, i think there has to be a ladies team attached and the payment of franchise fee. I believe this is around £150k though can be staggered. Solent appear to have the money but the arena is not to standard. Hemel are probably the most ready off court but arena is not to standard. Reading have applied a few times but arena is not to standard. Worthing probably have a long term ambition to rejoin the BBL with Zaire now in charge but doubtful their arena is up to current standards. The one team in Div 1 who have an arena that is better than virtually all BBL teams is Essex Rebels. But the Uni wouldn't fund the jump. Which is awful. What’s the point in say Solent carrying on? What’s their raison d’etre? To win a minor league year after year? Fans thrive on the possibility of promotion. (I understand BBL is a closed shop and their silly ground rules etc). Must be embarrassing when Solent win a trophy in a league where clubs don’t bother to turn up for fixtures at the end of the season as Dave Hersey has said. You'd have to ask Solent. They've had multiple opportunities over the years to prepare for a jump to the BBL, most recently in the design of their new arena, and they haven't taken them. Clearly what they're doing right now works for them and they've (currently) no desire to change that. |
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Post by tonyleopard on Apr 19, 2021 8:52:37 GMT
The way the BBL is currently set up, there can be no automatic promotion/relegation. It is a franchise system the same as in Super League rugby league. There are minimum standards of arena, i think there has to be a ladies team attached and the payment of franchise fee. I believe this is around £150k though can be staggered. Solent appear to have the money but the arena is not to standard. Hemel are probably the most ready off court but arena is not to standard. Reading have applied a few times but arena is not to standard. Worthing probably have a long term ambition to rejoin the BBL with Zaire now in charge but doubtful their arena is up to current standards. The one team in Div 1 who have an arena that is better than virtually all BBL teams is Essex Rebels. But the Uni wouldn't fund the jump. Which is awful. What’s the point in say Solent carrying on? What’s their raison d’etre? To win a minor league year after year? Fans thrive on the possibility of promotion. (I understand BBL is a closed shop and their silly ground rules etc). Must be embarrassing when Solent win a trophy in a league where clubs don’t bother to turn up for fixtures at the end of the season as Dave Hersey has said. I don't disagree, but for the BBL to thrive there has to be teams in good standard, tv friendly arenas, preferably ones that are owned by the clubs. Newcastle & Leicester hopefully once we are thru all the restrictions, will get back to their arenas bringing in a constant income from hiring them out for events. Bristol came into the League on the promise of a new Arena. Several years down the road it still seems to be a pipe dream. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 9:20:05 GMT
Which is awful. What’s the point in say Solent carrying on? What’s their raison d’etre? To win a minor league year after year? Fans thrive on the possibility of promotion. (I understand BBL is a closed shop and their silly ground rules etc). Must be embarrassing when Solent win a trophy in a league where clubs don’t bother to turn up for fixtures at the end of the season as Dave Hersey has said. You'd have to ask Solent. They've had multiple opportunities over the years to prepare for a jump to the BBL, most recently in the design of their new arena, and they haven't taken them. Clearly what they're doing right now works for them and they've (currently) no desire to change that. I wouldn't ask Solent. They're really touchy about it.if they were remotely serious about going into the BBL they'd have designed their venue differently. This debate has been done multiple times. Relegation and franchise systems don't work. Unless there were more than 16 (or even 18) BBL standard clubs there's no need for relegation |
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Post by faz on Apr 19, 2021 10:19:32 GMT
Maybe as said earlier they’re happy with what they’ve got. The best men’s team outside the BBL and a strong junior set up where kids progress and the best get to the states or Europe.
I think the BBL would need to generate more money to financially justify joining the bbl and risking what they have.
One could argue they contribute more to British basketball than some bbl clubs with weaker junior academy set ups.
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Post by ko25 on Apr 19, 2021 16:08:11 GMT
Does anyone know how/why the BBL was started in the first place with the franchise system?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 10:57:51 GMT
Clubs wanted autonomy from EBBA. it looked like a rebrand but the top division (15 ckubs) gave themselves franchises and obviously kiked no relegation. So many went pop in the early years it was virtually irrelevant. There was also a bit more movement as Oldham and Palace both qent D1/BBL/D1 presumably wirhout buying and sellung franchises
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Post by ko25 on Apr 20, 2021 11:09:45 GMT
Clubs wanted autonomy from EBBA. it looked like a rebrand but the roo division (15 ckubs) gave themselves franchises and obviously kiked no relegation. So many went pop in the early years it was virtually irrelevant. There was also a bit more movement as Oldham and Palace both qent D1/BBL/D1 presumably wirhout buying and sellung franchises When you say gave themselves franchises did they pay the money they have to now or was it more of deciding that's what it was and everyone after had to pay? |
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Post by leamrider2 on Apr 20, 2021 15:29:55 GMT
It's a fair point to discuss, although I can't see any good solution.
The one thing I have never liked about BBL is that there is no real jeopardy. Lose every game: so what? All you lose is prestige and you miss out on a play-off phase that personally I just do not find that compelling.
The whole game in the UK needs a good re-examination in terms of its structure. I can't see it developing in any significant way from the base that it currently occupies.
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Post by solentkestrelsfan75 on Apr 20, 2021 16:10:38 GMT
So I browse another thread and find we are getting more stick. This is very hurtful...
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Post by faz on Apr 20, 2021 18:46:30 GMT
So I browse another thread and find we are getting more stick. This is very hurtful... Some compliments but you deserve stick fir the team you put out against Rebels. |
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Post by raiders92 on Apr 20, 2021 22:05:45 GMT
Does the NBA need promotion and relegation? No because they have a draft!! Some people probably wanted rid of philly a few years ago!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 10:23:44 GMT
Clubs wanted autonomy from EBBA. it looked like a rebrand but the roo division (15 clkubs) gave themselves franchises and obviously liked no relegation. So many went pop in the early years it was virtually irrelevant. There was also a bit more movement as Oldham and Palace both played D1/BBL/D1 presumably without buying and selling franchises When you say gave themselves franchises did they pay the money they have to now or was it more of deciding that's what it was and everyone after had to pay? The 15 formed the league and gave themselves franchises, presumably in return for 1/15th of whatever it cost to get things rolling. I think the first team to actually buy ones from the league might have been Sheffield , generally the "new" clubs bought a franchise off a club pulling out, Oldham dropped down to D1 when they joined but there's never been any suggestion they bought their franchise. Cardiff were granted a franchise in 1994 but never got on the floor - whether they paid any money is unknown - Leopards bought the Guildford (nee Kingston) franchise the same year. While Sheffield had played in the NBL for three years, Rocks were the first genuinely new club to buy a franchise in 1998 Palace had returned in 1996, who knows if they paid or somehow were let back in as previous members in its first couple of seasons? |
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