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Post by allstring on Jul 10, 2021 23:02:09 GMT
The discussion on EB teams and their suitability to the BBL got me thinking.
The off season has seen the loss of two quality teams. Probably need to go back to 2006 since the league has had such a major off season set back.
20 years ago the league featured 11 teams all of whom have won BBL competitions (ten the league title). In other words at some time in their history were able to compete at the very top.
The BBL is currently at 9 teams, six of whom were playing 20 years ago; Cheshire, Lions, Sheffield, Rocks, Leicester and Newcastle. The five lost were all powerhouses for periods, Towers, Leopards, Brighton, Thames Valley and Birmingham.
Things change and I’m not trying to paint a picture of everything being rosy 20 years ago. It wasn’t and there are things clearly better today. But the supporting cast to those 6 long termers is a bit disappointing.
Please feel free to correct the following.
From what I can tell, there have been 15 new teams in the last 20 years; Plymouth Raiders, Guildford Heat, Worcester Wolves, London United, Birmingham Panthers, Everton Tigers, London Capital, Worthing Thunder, Essex Pirates, Durham Wildcats, Manchester Giants, Birmingham Knights, Bristol Flyers, Leeds Force and London City Royals.
Three survive. Two, Surrey and Manchester, are generally competing at the bottom. Bristol have done well, but seem to be criticised for not having the arena (yet) they promised.
So where will future teams come from? History suggests the current nine won’t all remain long term and a nine team league should be temporary rather than an aspiration.
There seems to be a negativity for Uni teams, although none really stunk long term. Worcester in particular were a force. The Birmingham teams were almost forced and just not ready. London has had the extreme of teams not suited for the level, or spending at an unsustainable level. Everton was money driven and Worthing just couldn’t make the level work.
In those 15, 4 stand-out as being long term BBL suitable, two of whom have been lost in the last few weeks. Bristol certainly are. Guildford/Surrey are a rare survivor of an attempt to throw money at the team, but as a result are not playing at the level they were “pre-money”.
Gloucester look the most likely next new name. But come with the unknown (and baggage!) that most likely suggests they won’t be around long term (purely based on the law of averages). The biggest positive is geographically they fall into the Plymouth, Bristol, Worcester area (yes I appreciate that is a huge area and I’m stretching the concept of the the West country !), and all three of those teams have done well in the BBL.
How can the BBL improve the success rate of new teams? They don’t have to accept a new team now, but when they feel new teams are required, is there anywhere obvious and acceptable currently?
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Post by reallyoldfeenixfan on Jul 11, 2021 6:52:22 GMT
No. Lack of somewhere to play is a real issue.
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Post by drivethebody on Jul 11, 2021 7:22:27 GMT
How many staff have BBL got?
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 11, 2021 7:35:24 GMT
Another poster nailed it in another thread I think
It's a lack of passionate basketball people with the access to serious funds and the nous and desire to create a club with any kind of long term plan
Where's the next Kevin Routledge or Paul Blake going to come from ?
So few and far between these types of guys
No good even having a suitable venue without the brains behind it
Ps isn't or wasn't Paul Blake chairman of BBL?
So at least someone there knows what is needed to make a successful club
Finding more like him is the much much bigger problem
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 8:07:56 GMT
Another poster nailed it in another thread I think It's a lack of passionate basketball people with the access to serious funds and the nous and desire to create a club with any kind of long term plan Where's the next Kevin Routledge or Paul Blake going to come from ? So few and far between these types of guys No good even having a suitable venue without the brains behind it Ps isn't or wasn't Paul Blake chairman of BBL? So at least someone there knows what is needed to make a successful club Finding more like him is the much much bigger problem I guess we know this already, but the days of people chucking money at sports teams without any pathway to making money are just about over. And unless the BBL comes up with a business model that can achieve financial results, I can’t see anyone stepping forward. Sure, you can build an arena, but will sufficient amount of tickets be sold? Compete in Europe? Nope, that’s a money pit for sure. Post pandemic leagues all over Europe will have to adjust their models. So this is not just a U.K. problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 9:42:07 GMT
How many staff have BBL got? Fewer than the amount of times you've asked this question. It's not relevant, and the fact no one wants to enter into a conversation with you is telling. Regarding the OP, the BBL needs to decide if they want to continue the franchise system as it stands and whether its willing to relax its venue requirements. I understand why clubs who paid a six figure fee for their franchise don't see why another club should get it for free. But they do need opponents to play against. Maybe a three year licence where teams pay an annual fee and at the end of that period they have an option to buy a franchise. This was tried with London United & Capital and failed spectacularly, but both clubs were always likely to fail. They were desperation "signings" and that's something that needs to be avoided. The fact that Gloucester appear to have been turned down is actually encouraging - letting any group of chancers who fancy running a club join isn't the way to go. The franchise fee is a massive turn off for D1 clubs. They need to find a way around the problem. They also need to decide whether it's feasible to have a decent sized league with all of the venues being suitable for TV coverage or whether simply having several that Sky will use if enough. Even if Solent knocked the wall between their two courts down and completely reconfigured the venue it wouldn't be big enough to meet current regulations. And they're not going to build another new arena. Essex Rebels are the only D1 club with a BBL-reading venue and I saw no signs when we were there that they'll make the investment to buy a franchise and fund a pro team. They're far more likely to "do a Worcester". So the clubs who have invested in a decent arena have to decide if they want to effectively carry clubs without those facilities in order to grow the league. As Dave F has said, BE has done a lousy job of growing professional basketball in this country - there's no point in relying on them to solve the problem. I doubt they even know there's a problem. So ultimately the clubs with the arenas and franchises have to decide whether they want a small league or whether they're willing to lower standards/expectations to achieve a bigger BBL |
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Post by drivethebody on Jul 11, 2021 10:32:06 GMT
How many staff have BBL got? Fewer than the amount of times you've asked this question. It's not relevant, and the fact no one wants to enter into a conversation with you is telling. Regarding the OP, the BBL needs to decide if they want to continue the franchise system as it stands and whether its willing to relax its venue requirements. I understand why clubs who paid a six figure fee for their franchise don't see why another club should get it for free. But they do need opponents to play against. Maybe a three year licence where teams pay an annual fee and at the end of that period they have an option to buy a franchise. This was tried with London United & Capital and failed spectacularly, but both clubs were always likely to fail. They were desperation "signings" and that's something that needs to be avoided. The fact that Gloucester appear to have been turned down is actually encouraging - letting any group of chancers who fancy running a club join isn't the way to go. The franchise fee is a massive turn off for D1 clubs. They need to find a way around the problem. They also need to decide whether it's feasible to have a decent sized league with all of the venues being suitable for TV coverage or whether simply having several that Sky will use if enough. Even if Solent knocked the wall between their two courts down and completely reconfigured the venue it wouldn't be big enough to meet current regulations. And they're not going to build another new arena. Essex Rebels are the only D1 club with a BBL-reading venue and I saw no signs when we were there that they'll make the investment to buy a franchise and fund a pro team. They're far more likely to "do a Worcester". So the clubs who have invested in a decent arena have to decide if they want to effectively carry clubs without those facilities in order to grow the league. As Dave F has said, BE has done a lousy job of growing professional basketball in this country - there's no point in relying on them to solve the problem. I doubt they even know there's a problem. So ultimately the clubs with the arenas and franchises have to decide whether they want a small league or whether they're willing to lower standards/expectations to achieve a bigger BBL I’m just genuinely interested! No one seems to know the score |
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Post by RaidersFan92 on Jul 11, 2021 11:12:06 GMT
Fewer than the amount of times you've asked this question. It's not relevant, and the fact no one wants to enter into a conversation with you is telling. Regarding the OP, the BBL needs to decide if they want to continue the franchise system as it stands and whether its willing to relax its venue requirements. I understand why clubs who paid a six figure fee for their franchise don't see why another club should get it for free. But they do need opponents to play against. Maybe a three year licence where teams pay an annual fee and at the end of that period they have an option to buy a franchise. This was tried with London United & Capital and failed spectacularly, but both clubs were always likely to fail. They were desperation "signings" and that's something that needs to be avoided. The fact that Gloucester appear to have been turned down is actually encouraging - letting any group of chancers who fancy running a club join isn't the way to go. The franchise fee is a massive turn off for D1 clubs. They need to find a way around the problem. They also need to decide whether it's feasible to have a decent sized league with all of the venues being suitable for TV coverage or whether simply having several that Sky will use if enough. Even if Solent knocked the wall between their two courts down and completely reconfigured the venue it wouldn't be big enough to meet current regulations. And they're not going to build another new arena. Essex Rebels are the only D1 club with a BBL-reading venue and I saw no signs when we were there that they'll make the investment to buy a franchise and fund a pro team. They're far more likely to "do a Worcester". So the clubs who have invested in a decent arena have to decide if they want to effectively carry clubs without those facilities in order to grow the league. As Dave F has said, BE has done a lousy job of growing professional basketball in this country - there's no point in relying on them to solve the problem. I doubt they even know there's a problem. So ultimately the clubs with the arenas and franchises have to decide whether they want a small league or whether they're willing to lower standards/expectations to achieve a bigger BBL I’m just genuinely interested! No one seems to know the score How many do we think they need? Is there a part of their website? I assume There will be sales and events, competitions (scheduling etc), communications, they’re looking for a PM for something to do with officials. |
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Post by dandayr on Jul 11, 2021 12:12:06 GMT
the answer is easily found - the average number of employees is part of the freely available document on the companies house website.
at end of day not sure why keen to know how many staff - like many comment on here with regards BE, its just a number and what counts is what are the roles the staff have and are they doing them well.
i will give a nonsense example - you could find BBL has 20 members of staff but if no one has the role of marketing or the role of finding sponsors, then what does it matter if there are 20 or 200?
was a nonsense example, as we do know they have an active person in marketing and the average staff number is single figures
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Post by drivethebody on Jul 11, 2021 12:53:24 GMT
the answer is easily found - the average number of employees is part of the freely available document on the companies house website. at end of day not sure why keen to know how many staff - like many comment on here with regards BE, its just a number and what counts is what are the roles the staff have and are they doing them well. i will give a nonsense example - you could find BBL has 20 members of staff but if no one has the role of marketing or the role of finding sponsors, then what does it matter if there are 20 or 200? was a nonsense example, as we do know they have an active person in marketing and the average staff number is single figures Jasus- was a simple and innocent enough question. Didn’t Didn’t expect to have to go Companies House (I’m not that bothered looool) just kinda figured done basketball guy may know |
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Post by faz on Jul 11, 2021 13:40:33 GMT
Strategy should be realistic and pitched to current teams circumstances. We’re effectively a circa 50% semi pro league. Pitch your strategy accordingly. Venue size is irrelevant if you can’t fill it. Where does the money for franchise fees go? I’m seeing clubs making progress rather than the bbl. There’s huge participation and following for the game in the uk just not for the bbl. The strategy should reflect that.
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Post by dandayr on Jul 11, 2021 13:41:30 GMT
the answer for 2020 accounts was an average of 9 members of staff.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 14:13:30 GMT
Let’s just cut through all the whitewashing and BS here. There are 9 teams left. Of the remaining clubs, I’d be very interested to see who commits to paying players and running up expenses fully knowing that revenue from ticket sales and sponsorship will be down at least 50% if not more. I would think the directors of these clubs and the BBL have a fiduciary responsibility here. Also, I’d like to see if Buzz 16 is still willing to fund production costs of the games for a second season as Sky didn’t do any real promotion of BBL games so somebody gotta take the hit.
This can all unravel quite quickly from here guys. This is not fearmongering, but the full reality of the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 18:10:53 GMT
Evening Ronald, I'd ask where you got these "facts" from, but history shows you're just a bankrupt man's Trump.
It's a shame you didn't have the balls to back up your claim that 20/21 wouldn't happen with cold hard cash, I'd have spent it on a ticket for tonight. The fact that even you don't believe the utter garbage you spout is pretty telling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 19:00:04 GMT
Evening Ronald, I'd ask where you got these "facts" from, but history shows you're just a bankrupt man's Trump. It's a shame you didn't have the balls to back up your claim that 20/21 wouldn't happen with cold hard cash, I'd have spent it on a ticket for tonight. The fact that even you don't believe the utter garbage you spout is pretty telling. Dude, I’m flattered you keeping calling me Ronald but try again. Why on earth would anyone do a transaction with somebody from a chat room they do t know? Maybe that’s how it’s done in Britain, no thank you. I’m just pointing out the obvious Hersey. Two teams long term teams drop out and we are still in a pandemic with tremendous uncertainty about this fall. Without a bailout the BBL would have been done last year. If all was rosy for this year, common sense dictate the teams would have stayed. Rats fleeing a sinking ship I believe. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jul 12, 2021 21:18:40 GMT
Evening Ronald, I'd ask where you got these "facts" from, but history shows you're just a bankrupt man's Trump. It's a shame you didn't have the balls to back up your claim that 20/21 wouldn't happen with cold hard cash, I'd have spent it on a ticket for tonight. The fact that even you don't believe the utter garbage you spout is pretty telling. Dude, I’m flattered you keeping calling me Ronald but try again. Why on earth would anyone do a transaction with somebody from a chat room they do t know? Maybe that’s how it’s done in Britain, no thank you. I’m just pointing out the obvious Hersey. Two teams long term teams drop out and we are still in a pandemic with tremendous uncertainty about this fall. Without a bailout the BBL would have been done last year. If all was rosy for this year, common sense dictate the teams would have stayed. Rats fleeing a sinking ship I believe. I mean, wouldnt a lot of if not most of the entertainment industry gone to the dogs without a "bailout"? |
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Post by borthwick on Jul 12, 2021 21:22:20 GMT
Do Dunkster uses the word fall rather than autumn. Seems like a poster of American origin. Maybeit is Ronald.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 13:57:47 GMT
Do Dunkster uses the word fall rather than autumn. Seems like a poster of American origin. Maybeit is Ronald. Well Bud, you got half of it right. Always said I was American, from Florida, and know South Florida very well and enough to know that money coming to save the BBL ain't coming from there! Appreciate the comparison to Ron Scott, but I'm probably half his age, and not Black, not that its a problem tho!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 15:21:54 GMT
Why on earth would anyone do a transaction with somebody from a chat room they do t know? Maybe that’s how it’s done in Britain, no thank you. I’m just pointing out the obvious Hersey. Two teams long term teams drop out and we are still in a pandemic with tremendous uncertainty about this fall. Without a bailout the BBL would have been done last year. If all was rosy for this year, common sense dictate the teams would have stayed. Rats fleeing a sinking ship I believe. Unlike you, people know who I am. But you bottled the chance to back up your claims. Everything you told us was not going to happen last season, did. That clearly irks you. It would be good to know why you appear to hate the BBL so much, but as I'd check the calendar if you told me today was Tuesday, I guess you'll just continue to spout the same old crap. |
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Post by borthwick on Jul 13, 2021 16:07:19 GMT
"common sense says the teams would have stayed"
If only life was that simple. Worcester have gone becauee their funder, the University, pulled the plug. There is sadly a track record of Universities doing this. I doubt they had any intention of staying. Certainly didn't do anything to find a way to keep the club but it was never a club in the sense of many others.
I have no idea what has happened at Plymouth. They have been in the NBL and BBL forever and in theory have wealthy backers so the money argument doesn't stack. Not when smaller clubs like Cheshire can make it work. Something major has happened and none of us know what but I really don't think it's the simple reasons you suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 16:22:13 GMT
Why on earth would anyone do a transaction with somebody from a chat room they do t know? Maybe that’s how it’s done in Britain, no thank you. I’m just pointing out the obvious Hersey. Two teams long term teams drop out and we are still in a pandemic with tremendous uncertainty about this fall. Without a bailout the BBL would have been done last year. If all was rosy for this year, common sense dictate the teams would have stayed. Rats fleeing a sinking ship I believe. Unlike you, people know who I am. But you bottled the chance to back up your claims. Everything you told us was not going to happen last season, did. That clearly irks you. It would be good to know why you appear to hate the BBL so much, but as I'd check the calendar if you told me today was Tuesday, I guess you'll just continue to spout the same old crap. Ah, my good friend hearsay! Just because I haven't drank the BBL Kool Aid does not mean that I hate the league. And as far as fessing up to my saying they wouldn't play last season, I've done that. The fact that they burnt cash playing without any chance of revenue is still in my opinion bad business. Hockey "bottled" the season and hockey does better than basketball commercially? And now with teams dropping out the BBL, there is no reason to believe that more won't follow. This is not hating, this is fact. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jul 13, 2021 16:30:10 GMT
Unlike you, people know who I am. But you bottled the chance to back up your claims. Everything you told us was not going to happen last season, did. That clearly irks you. It would be good to know why you appear to hate the BBL so much, but as I'd check the calendar if you told me today was Tuesday, I guess you'll just continue to spout the same old crap. Ah, my good friend hearsay! Just because I haven't drank the BBL Kool Aid does not mean that I hate the league. And as far as fessing up to my saying they wouldn't play last season, I've done that. The fact that they burnt cash playing without any chance of revenue is still in my opinion bad business. Hockey "bottled" the season and hockey does better than basketball commercially? And now with teams dropping out the BBL, there is no reason to believe that more won't follow. This is not hating, this is fact. Did Hersey get his 1000? |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 13, 2021 18:19:23 GMT
Unlike you, people know who I am. But you bottled the chance to back up your claims. Everything you told us was not going to happen last season, did. That clearly irks you. It would be good to know why you appear to hate the BBL so much, but as I'd check the calendar if you told me today was Tuesday, I guess you'll just continue to spout the same old crap. Ah, my good friend hearsay! Just because I haven't drank the BBL Kool Aid does not mean that I hate the league. And as far as fessing up to my saying they wouldn't play last season, I've done that. The fact that they burnt cash playing without any chance of revenue is still in my opinion bad business. Hockey "bottled" the season and hockey does better than basketball commercially? And now with teams dropping out the BBL, there is no reason to believe that more won't follow. This is not hating, this is fact. There's a relevant point here Ice hockey didn't attempt a League despite being a winter sport Do they have more "credit" to play with when they believe it's viable to start? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 18:42:06 GMT
Ah, my good friend hearsay! Just because I haven't drank the BBL Kool Aid does not mean that I hate the league. And as far as fessing up to my saying they wouldn't play last season, I've done that. The fact that they burnt cash playing without any chance of revenue is still in my opinion bad business. Hockey "bottled" the season and hockey does better than basketball commercially? And now with teams dropping out the BBL, there is no reason to believe that more won't follow. This is not hating, this is fact. There's a relevant point here Ice hockey didn't attempt a League despite being a winter sport Do they have more "credit" to play with when they believe it's viable to start? I have a friend that works at the Sheffield ice hockey team and he’s says it’s 50/50 that they will play this season and before Covid they were getting average 5000 paid attendance with 30 home games. The videos he sent me were insane. Looked like a blast and fun night out. I guess for Sheffield that’s good? How many go to the BBL Sheffield games when they are on? Clearly not 5000?? |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 13, 2021 18:57:23 GMT
There's a relevant point here Ice hockey didn't attempt a League despite being a winter sport Do they have more "credit" to play with when they believe it's viable to start? I have a friend that works at the Sheffield ice hockey team and he’s says it’s 50/50 that they will play this season and before Covid they were getting average 5000 paid attendance with 30 home games. The videos he sent me were insane. Looked like a blast and fun night out. I guess for Sheffield that’s good? How many go to the BBL Sheffield games when they are on? Clearly not 5000?? I used to go nottingham panthers Steelers were the big rivals 8,000 sellout crowds when they play each other at nottingham Very popular with uni students |
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