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Post by massiveridersfan on Nov 1, 2018 19:52:59 GMT
Despite his ability as a passer of the ball, I've always thought he lacks a decent shot which means teams can afford to focus their attention on others - even his FT is a weird action that looks really awkward. It's something Lascelles could address fairly easily and given his credentials I'm surprised he hasn't improved since joining Riders.
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Post by LTFan on Nov 2, 2018 9:57:27 GMT
LOL. But, seriously, a good effort from Riders tonight against what looked a beatable team - the sort of game you will win next year with the benefit of this experience. If you qualify, of course 🤔 I think we really shocked their fans and their team how close it was Can we beat one of the Hungarian teams at home I hope so! Will be like winning a trophy if we do!! Exactly how did they qualify for this? My understanding is that winning their domestic league (the BBL) for them an invite to the qualifying round of the FIBA Champions League. Teams that didn’t succeed in that, such as Riders, were given the opportunity to enter the FIBA Europe Cup. Right? So does that mean all Riders have to do to try this again next year is win the BBL league again this season? Od does having now played in the Europe Cup given them some sort of short cut? Equally, what if Eagles or Lions won the BBL league this season, would they also get an invite to the qualifying round of the FIBA Champions League? Whether they decide their in a position to accept it is a different question of course… |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 2, 2018 10:02:56 GMT
Rob "our aim when we entered this competition was to get better than when we started and that's what we are doing" (Which answers a couple of questions earlier in the thread) That’s the PR answer. I’m sure the honest answer is that the Riders organisation didn’t expect them to qualify for the Champions League, or progress that far into the Europe Cup. But I suspect they were/are hoping/expecting to at least get to the second group stage, and will be disappointed if they don’t. This is the 4th tier of pan-European basketball after all – you’d think the best the BBL can offer could at least get past the first round of that. |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 2, 2018 10:11:25 GMT
Lost 82-79 Washington 22 mins for 21 points Thomson 21 mins 14 points Anderson and holder 11 points each Douse 10 points Hampton still getting match fit just 7 points Their fans gave our team a great ovation at the end of the game Hampton still didn’t look great, limping quite a lot, and his performance reflected that. I think the half time and full time scores (Riders down by 3 at both) are somewhat kind, but none the less full credit to them for not letting the game run away from them. Maybe it’s just good defensive from the other teams, but Riders really don’t seem to play as well in these Europe games as they do in the BBL. I have a feeling the pressure gets to them, I wish they could approach it with the confidence they do with BBL games. Having said that I doubt any team in the BBL right now could have done any better. So what do we think… I know there’s still more games to come (and with home court advantage) but I don’t think Riders will be able to get past the first group stage now. The 3 losses have put them in a hole that I think is too deep to get out of now. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 11:00:38 GMT
Rob "our aim when we entered this competition was to get better than when we started and that's what we are doing" (Which answers a couple of questions earlier in the thread) That’s the PR answer. I’m sure the honest answer is that the Riders organisation didn’t expect them to qualify for the Champions League, or progress that far into the Europe Cup. But I suspect they were/are hoping/expecting to at least get to the second group stage, and will be disappointed if they don’t. This is the 4th tier of pan-European basketball after all – you’d think the best the BBL can offer could at least get past the first round of that. Well I think we all accept that the Italian League is way ahead of BBL. Nobody would expect us to finish ahead of an Italian team in the group I guess the simple question is how does the Hungarian League compare to BBL as we would have to finish above both those teams to qualify They looked very good to me. Are we saying BBL should be ahead of them? |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 11:02:48 GMT
Lost 82-79 Washington 22 mins for 21 points Thomson 21 mins 14 points Anderson and holder 11 points each Douse 10 points Hampton still getting match fit just 7 points Their fans gave our team a great ovation at the end of the game Hampton still didn’t look great, limping quite a lot, and his performance reflected that. I think the half time and full time scores (Riders down by 3 at both) are somewhat kind, but none the less full credit to them for not letting the game run away from them. Maybe it’s just good defensive from the other teams, but Riders really don’t seem to play as well in these Europe games as they do in the BBL. I have a feeling the pressure gets to them, I wish they could approach it with the confidence they do with BBL games. Having said that I doubt any team in the BBL right now could have done any better. So what do we think… I know there’s still more games to come (and with home court advantage) but I don’t think Riders will be able to get past the first group stage now. The 3 losses have put them in a hole that I think is too deep to get out of now. The defence weve faced in all the Euro games seems to have been a whole different level to anything weve faced in BBL whilst I've watched us No easy baskets |
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Post by eagle on Nov 2, 2018 11:16:53 GMT
The Hungarian teams aren’t that great. More size maybe. Less athleticism. Leicester’s team at the end of last year would have beaten them comfortably.
That team on Wednesday was there for the taking. They missed a ton of layups early whilst Riders were ‘still on the plane’ and out of rhythm. Their defence was nothing special, riders scored 32 points in the 4th quarter.
A Riders team with only one functioning American (although why wright is playing if he is genuinely hurt is unclear) had a shot against them on the road.
Riders know that that game was an opportunity missed. Clear from the press conference afterwards.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 11:26:10 GMT
The Hungarian teams aren’t that great. More size maybe. Less athleticism. Leicester’s team at the end of last year would have beaten them comfortably. That team on Wednesday was there for the taking. They missed a ton of layups early whilst Riders were ‘still on the plane’ and out of rhythm. Their defence was nothing special, riders scored 32 points in the 4th quarter. A Riders team with only one functioning American (although why wright is playing if he is genuinely hurt is unclear) had a shot against them on the road. Riders know that that game was an opportunity missed. Clear from the press conference afterwards. The Hungarian team we lost to by 3 points on Wednesday were 45 secs away from beating the Italians in Italy I'm just putting that in here as they must be decent to manage that? Maybe BBL is better than we are giving it credit for then? |
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Post by eagle on Nov 2, 2018 11:50:48 GMT
Of course it is
Basketball isn’t binary. It isn’t about how many players you have or how much money you spend. Chemistry is critical, particularly early season. Finding 5 man units that work. That was noticeable when riders played royals.
The Italian team that played at Leicester clearly had a lot of talent. Possibly too much. But their chemistry was horrible. A number of very talented guys played very limited minutes. That is tough to manage however you try. They played big (with Cooley) and small (without). Weren’t comfortable either way. Didn’t stick or twist.
Once the coach sorts the talent out and obtains cohesion then their talent will separate them majorly. But as a team (not as a collection of individuals) they weren’t impressive in Leicester. And Riders played really hard throughout.
So no. Top level BBL teams are definitely underrated and riders are showing that. But they have also missed a couple of opportunities to be more than gallant losers.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Nov 2, 2018 11:59:39 GMT
I'd say its probably more an indictment of teams not knowing too much about Leicester/the british game and probably underestimating them - certainly in the case of the Italians and probably the second bunch of Hungarians.
Hate to burst the bubble.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 12:03:55 GMT
I'd say its probably more an indictment of teams not knowing too much about Leicester/the british game and probably underestimating them - certainly in the case of the Italians and probably the second bunch of Hungarians. Hate to burst the bubble. I'm obviously a riders fan and I kind of agree I have always felt we were having to play great just to live with these teams and I'm sure the surprise element has helped us. Plus our work ethic. I do think we can win a game or two in Europe still but I do believe these teams are a different level to us I think if the teams we faced played a BBL team less disciplined and regimented than us and they would win by 30 and 40 plus tbh At times its been looking like that might happen to us but we keep fighting back etc |
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Post by eagle on Nov 2, 2018 12:15:46 GMT
All these games are recorded and available to see.
We often over estimate the unknown and under estimate our own.
Reality is Leicester are competitive despite (due to injury, retirements, and lack of games) being nowhere close to where they have been at the end of the last two seasons.
I don’t think that can be explained by simply saying they are being taken lightly by the opposition.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 12:22:50 GMT
All these games are recorded and available to see. We often over estimate the unknown and under estimate our own. Reality is Leicester are competitive despite (due to injury, retirements, and lack of games) being nowhere close to where they have been at the end of the last two seasons. I don’t think that can be explained by simply saying they are being taken lightly by the opposition. We are missing Tyler but against Bakken - Burnett was the only player who could make any impact at all. We didn't have him end of last season End of last season Thomson was injured for most of it. He's one of our best players as of now. True Hampton was in top form end of last season and is recovering from injury. Trayvonn struggling. Laarson and anderson for Shane walker? Washington for Eric robertson I'm not sure there's a big difference. When they are all fit we are stronger I think although we are bound to miss Tyler. The system remains the same. That's what's working for us. Apart from when we just let Burnett do pretty much what he wanted on his own against bakken |
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Post by LTFan on Nov 2, 2018 12:33:07 GMT
That’s the PR answer. I’m sure the honest answer is that the Riders organisation didn’t expect them to qualify for the Champions League, or progress that far into the Europe Cup. But I suspect they were/are hoping/expecting to at least get to the second group stage, and will be disappointed if they don’t. This is the 4th tier of pan-European basketball after all – you’d think the best the BBL can offer could at least get past the first round of that. Well I think we all accept that the Italian League is way ahead of BBL. Nobody would expect us to finish ahead of an Italian team in the group I guess the simple question is how does the Hungarian League compare to BBL as we would have to finish above both those teams to qualify They looked very good to me. Are we saying BBL should be ahead of them? It’s not as simple as which league plays better quality basketball, let’s put this into perspective… The Italian league is way ahead of the BBL. Agreed. BUT Riders – arguably the best in the BBL, aren’t playing the best in the Italian league. The top tier pan-European basketball competition is the Euroleague, and one team from the Italian league is playing in that. The second tier pan-European basketball competition is the EuroCup, and three teams from the Italian league is playing in that. The third tier pan-European basketball competition is the Champions League, and three teams from the Italian league is playing in that. Finally, the forth tier pan-European basketball competition is the Europe Cup, and two teams from the Italian league is playing in that. Given that there are 16 teams in the top Italian league (I’m guessing all these teams come from that, although I’ve not checked) that actually means that Riders aren’t playing the best Italian teams, far from it. More like the middle of the table teams. So this isn’t a case of ‘ is the best in the BBL better than the best in Italy?’. More like ‘ is the best in the BBL better than an average Italy team?’. As for the Hungarian league. I’ve checked, and there are no Hungarian teams playing in the Euroleage, EuroCup or Champions League. But there are two playing in the Europe Cup. In other words, Hungarian teams don’t play at a level equal to the top 3 tiers of pan-European competition. As can be said about the BBL. But they do play (or at least try to) at the 4th tier competition level. As is also the case with the BBL. So in conclusion (I got there in the end!) I think the Hungarian league and the BBL are actually probably relatively comparable, and don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect Riders to finish above at least one, if not both, of the Hungarian teams. Or at least to have had that view at the start of the competition. |
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Post by eagle on Nov 2, 2018 13:53:39 GMT
Walker is a stretch 5 who has been replaced by a totally different (and less effective) player
Burnett is a black hole (look at his sssist numbers and shooting percentage) and it is no coincidence Conner played better when he didn’t.
Bernadini and a fit Hampton are not replaced by any of this roster and an unfit Hampton. (You can’t on one hand say Bernadini is a one off and virtually irreplaceable and they say we have replaced him!)
Anderson provides depth on the wing but doesn’t make up for the no show that is wright.
When riders needed to win games last year they went to Bernadini Robertson Hampton holder and wright/walker/Thomson line up. That was a smart switchable line up which spaced the floor and got good looks (particularly from 3). For various reasons they haven’t had a
lineup anywhere near as effective as that this year so far.
They still have a really solid team but have played 6 games in 8 weeks and have a ton of growing pains to work through.
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Post by gloryeagle on Nov 2, 2018 16:04:19 GMT
Sassari came 10th in the Italain league last season with a 15-15 record.
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Post by Steven McTowelie on Nov 2, 2018 16:37:32 GMT
We probably got that close because certain players couldn't play much rather than despite that. TrayVonn did very little last season and about the same so far this season but continues to be given significant minutes that are better used elsewhere. Similarly Conner has been used way too little until this game and as normal we became better when he had to play significant minutes in an important game. TrayVonn and Burnett are also the main culprits of taking shots that have little chance of going in so having most basically missing probably improved our shot choice significantly. I'd far rather a player like Rema who'll never shoot over a player who'll choose the shot over passing to a player in a better place. Agree with bits of that. TrayVonn's total lack of contribution at the moment is definitely a concern. Though some way from his best, I still thought he earned his keep last season. Right now he's a shadow even of that guy. If his recent woes are injury related, I think it would make sense to sit him down for a bit, rather than repeatedly trot him out there for 5-10 ineffective minutes a game. Burnett I agree can be a little erratic and prone to taking bad shots. There's definitely a bit too much low percentage mid-range junk in his game at the moment but his talent is fairly obvious in my opinion and with a bit of fine tuning, I think he could be a real weapon at this level. I get the impression Rob rates him so like him or not (and he seems the type of player who might really divide opinion) I think he's definitely going to feature prominently for us this season, assuming the injury is nothing too serious. You can't be a guard who never shoots. Rema's a pass first point guard, that's fine, but you've got to pose some sort of threat as a scorer to be fully effective as a facilitator. You've got to have a bit of balance to your game and he just doesn't at the moment. The guy's now gone 47 consecutive minutes without registering a FGA. I find that a pretty remarkable statistic. Tbh I'm not sure teams do as good a job of exploiting his obvious limitations as they should. I think back to the way Jamell was (not) defended earlier in his career and I wonder why Lascelles doesn't get similar treatment. He was a pleasant surprise last season but we're much deeper at his position now than we were then. In my opinion he's our fourth best option at PG and I just don't think his contribution comes close to warranting 20 mpg. In Europe and against the top BBL teams, I think he should be used quite sparingly. If I was an opposing guard I know who I'd rather defend out of Lascelles and Burnett (or Washington or Douse). That’s the PR answer. I’m sure the honest answer is that the Riders organisation didn’t expect them to qualify for the Champions League, or progress that far into the Europe Cup. But I suspect they were/are hoping/expecting to at least get to the second group stage, and will be disappointed if they don’t. This is the 4th tier of pan-European basketball after all – you’d think the best the BBL can offer could at least get past the first round of that. I actually don't find what Rob says in that interview too difficult to swallow. Given what an ultra-competitive guy he's always appeared to be, I suspect he will be disappointed if we don't win a game but I think qualifying for the second round (at the first attempt) would have been far more of a hope than an expectation. This may be the fourth tier of European basketball but Leicester Riders is still the smallest club with (I strongly suspect) the smallest budget in the group. Dinamo Sassari, on paper is a complete mismatch for any BBL club. That should be fairly obvious to all. The Hungarian sides are certainly not on that level but I feel they're been repeatedly short-changed in these discussions. Szolnoki Olaj has been competing in Europe since 2010. They've made two Eurochallenge semi-finals over that period and made the knockout stages of Eurocup a few seasons ago. Long story short, they've established themselves as something well in excess of what any BBL club could realistically aspire to be in the near future. Szombathely I think is a bit closer to BBL level (despite what our results might suggest). But we're still talking about a club with a 4,000 capacity venue. A club that has a few years experience in Europe under it's belt. And a roster containing a key guy from a Europe Cup semi-finalist last season, another guy who played in BCL last season, another guy who's played in a Final 4, and Lega A, and A1 Greece... This is very much, urrr 'new ground' for Riders. We're the first BBL team to take a stab at Europe since the competitions were significantly reformatted. And we're trying to make it work with a team that is banged up and comprised solely of first/second year pros and BBL lifers. Even the weakest teams we face in the fourth tier of European competition have a good amount of higher level experience in their ranks. We have none. We were favourites to finish last in this group, make no mistake about it. I've seen enough to believe we can win a game with this bunch but I think that any BBL team looking to advance beyond the opening group phase in future season's will need to sign a bit more quality and experience (and probably spend a bit more money) than we have. Was saying that all summer. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 16:52:57 GMT
Re your comments on Rob and Burnett
He will turn him into a huge weapon the longer he works with him
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Post by interestedridersfan on Nov 2, 2018 22:53:33 GMT
Walker is a stretch 5 who has been replaced by a totally different (and less effective) player Burnett is a black hole (look at his sssist numbers and shooting percentage) and it is no coincidence Conner played better when he didn’t. Bernadini and a fit Hampton are not replaced by any of this roster and an unfit Hampton. (You can’t on one hand say Bernadini is a one off and virtually irreplaceable and they say we have replaced him!) Anderson provides depth on the wing but doesn’t make up for the no show that is wright. When riders needed to win games last year they went to Bernadini Robertson Hampton holder and wright/walker/Thomson line up. That was a smart switchable line up which spaced the floor and got good looks (particularly from 3). For various reasons they haven’t had a lineup anywhere near as effective as that this year so far. They still have a really solid team but have played 6 games in 8 weeks and have a ton of growing pains to work through. We've just hammered an Eagles team away that we all accept is a lot better Eagles team than last season. They've been mighty impressive so far and I was genuinely worried we would lose tonight. Eagles had all the advantages tonight before the game and had brilliant momentum. The last 3 seasons I've been told Riders have been worse than the season before. I realise you made comments based on what you had seen so far this season. But I think after what you've just seen its time to review your comments? Each season we get more dominant and it's the system we play and the strength in depth to play the system that's just making us more dominant. We've sent a real message out to the rest of the BBL. And it's time we started to get some serious respect. Our coach may just know a little bit more about the game than the rest of us. Many of whom like to downplay how good we are. Tbf your post was very reasoned and made sense at the time. I think our performance v Royals made us look worse than we are and was sloppy. But now you've seen the game tonight I think it's just a case that you've analysed it wrong. We are stronger in depth than ever and with more experience and knowledge of the defensive intensity needed in Rob's system than ever. We've smothered eagles. You don't need to have brilliant offence every night when the defence and the team discipline throughout the squad is so strong and ingrained. Add in the best CURRENT coach in BBL and it's a tough combination. And we've got real quality in there backed up by a desire and intensity that other BBL teams are not going to be able to match. I believe the challenge of playing against the euro teams has made us stronger and raised the bar for us. Holder in particular must find it so easy facing BBL defences rather than Euro ones. Shame we won't be in Europe all season to keep us razor sharp. Serious target for Riders this season now has to become trying to win the slam. |
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Post by massiveridersfan on Nov 3, 2018 7:43:41 GMT
Thank God we won't be playing European games all season. We'd be a bunch of crocks and possibly bankrupt. Would be good to win some games against the European sides but I fear that won't be possible. The priority must be to return players to full fitness asap.
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