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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 9:59:04 GMT
After the Rocks game on Friday we were sat in the bar area and my other half asked the question; what will we do at Christmas? They use this room for Christmas parties; we won’t be able to use it. This question was then put to Yuri. Yuri replied saying that we had again fallen foul of SIV. He went on to explain that SIV wanted our (Sharks) business [bear with me with this one] but once again were at their beck and call, similar to the EIS and the use of their court and yes, the room would be used for Christmas parties; Yuri pointed out that we don’t have any home games in December. I have checked, we have one on the 29th. Yuri went on, ‘they’ (presumably Sheffield City Council (SCC) didn’t want us to have our own arena, putting obstacles in the way, much preferring us to use SIV venues. The Sharks were very much aware that they looked a very poor relation in the league at the moment and they were looking at buying their own court and a video screen to make Ponds Forge look a little better. I have held on to these comments, knowing that with a much highly thought of poster, held with high regards making comments such as; “Yeah, and do you know who's responsible for producing those make believe numbers? Put it this way, I wouldn't believe John Timms, Yuri Matischen, Joel Mills or Sarah Backovic if they told me the ****ing sky was blue.”
That I wouldn’t stand much of a chance repeating something that Yuri said?
That is until yesterday (Tuesday 15th) when SIV announced that they were struggling and required £3M to keep afloat (I did think about adding things like keeping Ponds Forge; International Swimming venue above water etc., but I also thought that would also be like water off a ducks back to some of you). Remember when I said; bear with me – SIV wanting Sharks’ business. I’m putting 2 and 2 together here and I may be wrong, it’s certainly a big leap for some. Maybe Yuri was right in what he was saying. SIV requiring £3M, obstacles in the way meaning that Sharks have to rely on SIV despite having to move out when SIV have other ways of making income.
I ask the simple question; why would SCC invest (time and money) in a brand new build for the Sharks when their own SIV’s are losing money?
As you all know, whereas I admit Atiba does have his faults, I don’t think he deserves all the criticism that he gets. I honestly believe some of the criticism is personal and not really because of what he is doing at the Sharks. Comments such as, Sharks were always in the top 3 between the mid 90’s and the mid 00’s don’t help along with, ‘You will NEVER convince me that Atiba is the right man to lead the Sharks’ and ‘But....they need to let Atiba go ASAP. His lack of success would not be accepted in football or most other sports.’
Well I have looked into this and I can say that during that time the Sharks finished 4th on 2 occasions – not good enough for Atiba’s coaching. Also, although not winning silver ware every single season; Abita’s record isn’t too shabby either, certainly in my opinion, not deserving of all of the criticism that he receives. I wish SWFC were as successful. I’ve taken the following table from the internet.
Season | League | Position | Play-Off | Trophy | Cup | Coach | 1994–95 | BBL | 1st | Semi Final | Runner-Up | Winners, beating Thames Valley | Jim Brandon | 1995–96
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Runner-Up
| Jim Brandon
| 1996–97
| BBL
| 3rd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Runner-Up
| Jim Brandon
| 1997–98
| BBL
| 4th
| Quarter Final
| Winners, beating Towers
| Quarter Final
| Chris Finch
| 1998–99
| BBL
| 1st
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Winners, beating Leopards
| Chris Finch
| 1999–00
| BBL N
| 2nd
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Winners, beating Manchester
| Chris Finch
| 2000–01
| BBL N
| 1st
| Runner-Up
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Chris Finch
| 2001–02
| BBL N
| 2nd
| Runner-Up
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Chris Finch
| 2002–03
| BBL
| 1st
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| 1st Round
| Chris Finch
| 2003–04
| BBL
| 2nd
| Winners, beating Chester
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Scottish
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2004–05
| BBL
| 4th
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2005–06
| BBL
| 3rd
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2006–07
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2007–08
| BBL
| 6th
| Quarter Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2008–09
| BBL
| 6th
| Quarter Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Atiba Lyons
| 2009–10
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Cheshire
| Atiba Lyons
| 2010–11
| BBL
| 3rd
| Runner-Up
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Mersey
| Atiba Lyons
| 2011–12
| BBL
| 7th
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Quarter Final
| Atiba Lyons
| 2012–13
| BBL
| 7th
| Quarter Final
| Winners, beating Leicester
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2013–14
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Finals
| Semi Finals
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2014–15
| BBL
| 7th
| Semi Finals
| Quarter Finals
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2015–16
| BBL
| 3rd
| Winners, beating Leicester
| Semi Finals
| Quarter Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2016–17
| BBL
| 4th
| Quarter Finals
| 1st Round
| Quarter Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2017–18
| BBL
| 8th
| Quarter Finals
| Runner Up
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2018–19
| BBL
| 6th
| Semi Finals
| 1st Round
| 1st Round
| Atiba Lyons
| 2019–20
| BBL
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| Atiba Lyons
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Post by notoriousbigz on Oct 16, 2019 10:01:53 GMT
This isn't going to help appease the Atiba haters to be fair.
No lower than 4th until Scant's last season (and those who know, know what happened during that season...)
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Post by Walt Singer on Oct 16, 2019 10:04:03 GMT
You've won 10 competitions, 4 under your current coach! Very few BBL clubs can match that, their plight could be greater!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 10:55:56 GMT
We have 1 trophy and the record for the worst final loss in bbl history or and the 2nd worst final loss!
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Post by Colicab85 on Oct 16, 2019 10:57:17 GMT
After the Rocks game on Friday we were sat in the bar area and my other half asked the question; what will we do at Christmas? They use this room for Christmas parties; we won’t be able to use it. This question was then put to Yuri. Yuri replied saying that we had again fallen foul of SIV. He went on to explain that SIV wanted our (Sharks) business [bear with me with this one] but once again were at their beck and call, similar to the EIS and the use of their court and yes, the room would be used for Christmas parties; Yuri pointed out that we don’t have any home games in December. I have checked, we have one on the 29th. Yuri went on, ‘they’ (presumably Sheffield City Council (SCC) didn’t want us to have our own arena, putting obstacles in the way, much preferring us to use SIV venues. The Sharks were very much aware that they looked a very poor relation in the league at the moment and they were looking at buying their own court and a video screen to make Ponds Forge look a little better. I have held on to these comments, knowing that with a much highly thought of poster, held with high regards making comments such as; “Yeah, and do you know who's responsible for producing those make believe numbers? Put it this way, I wouldn't believe John Timms, Yuri Matischen, Joel Mills or Sarah Backovic if they told me the ****ing sky was blue.”
That I wouldn’t stand much of a chance repeating something that Yuri said?
That is until yesterday (Tuesday 15th) when SIV announced that they were struggling and required £3M to keep afloat (I did think about adding things like keeping Ponds Forge; International Swimming venue above water etc., but I also thought that would also be like water off a ducks back to some of you). Remember when I said; bear with me – SIV wanting Sharks’ business. I’m putting 2 and 2 together here and I may be wrong, it’s certainly a big leap for some. Maybe Yuri was right in what he was saying. SIV requiring £3M, obstacles in the way meaning that Sharks have to rely on SIV despite having to move out when SIV have other ways of making income.
I ask the simple question; why would SCC invest (time and money) in a brand new build for the Sharks when their own SIV’s are losing money?
As you all know, whereas I admit Atiba does have his faults, I don’t think he deserves all the criticism that he gets. I honestly believe some of the criticism is personal and not really because of what he is doing at the Sharks. Comments such as, Sharks were always in the top 3 between the mid 90’s and the mid 00’s don’t help along with, ‘You will NEVER convince me that Atiba is the right man to lead the Sharks’ and ‘But....they need to let Atiba go ASAP. His lack of success would not be accepted in football or most other sports.’
Well I have looked into this and I can say that during that time the Sharks finished 4th on 2 occasions – not good enough for Atiba’s coaching. Also, although not winning silver ware every single season; Abita’s record isn’t too shabby either, certainly in my opinion, not deserving of all of the criticism that he receives. I wish SWFC were as successful. I’ve taken the following table from the internet.
Season | League | Position | Play-Off | Trophy | Cup | Coach | 1994–95 | BBL | 1st | Semi Final | Runner-Up | Winners, beating Thames Valley | Jim Brandon | 1995–96
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Runner-Up
| Jim Brandon
| 1996–97
| BBL
| 3rd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Runner-Up
| Jim Brandon
| 1997–98
| BBL
| 4th
| Quarter Final
| Winners, beating Towers
| Quarter Final
| Chris Finch
| 1998–99
| BBL
| 1st
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Winners, beating Leopards
| Chris Finch
| 1999–00
| BBL N
| 2nd
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Winners, beating Manchester
| Chris Finch
| 2000–01
| BBL N
| 1st
| Runner-Up
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Chris Finch
| 2001–02
| BBL N
| 2nd
| Runner-Up
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Chris Finch
| 2002–03
| BBL
| 1st
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| 1st Round
| Chris Finch
| 2003–04
| BBL
| 2nd
| Winners, beating Chester
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Scottish
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2004–05
| BBL
| 4th
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2005–06
| BBL
| 3rd
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2006–07
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Semi Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2007–08
| BBL
| 6th
| Quarter Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Peter Scantlebury
| 2008–09
| BBL
| 6th
| Quarter Final
| 1st Round
| Quarter Final
| Atiba Lyons
| 2009–10
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Final
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Cheshire
| Atiba Lyons
| 2010–11
| BBL
| 3rd
| Runner-Up
| 1st Round
| Winners, beating Mersey
| Atiba Lyons
| 2011–12
| BBL
| 7th
| Quarter Final
| Semi Final
| Quarter Final
| Atiba Lyons
| 2012–13
| BBL
| 7th
| Quarter Final
| Winners, beating Leicester
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2013–14
| BBL
| 2nd
| Semi Finals
| Semi Finals
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2014–15
| BBL
| 7th
| Semi Finals
| Quarter Finals
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2015–16
| BBL
| 3rd
| Winners, beating Leicester
| Semi Finals
| Quarter Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2016–17
| BBL
| 4th
| Quarter Finals
| 1st Round
| Quarter Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2017–18
| BBL
| 8th
| Quarter Finals
| Runner Up
| Semi Finals
| Atiba Lyons
| 2018–19
| BBL
| 6th
| Semi Finals
| 1st Round
| 1st Round
| Atiba Lyons
| 2019–20
| BBL
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| Atiba Lyons
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Again very commendable in your support Dyb Dyb. I suppose people close to the team, which you clearly are, will have a different opinion and have to "toe the party line". While its great that Atiba has had the odd flurry of success, very much in his earlier coaching career, this table just proves reinforces that he is not a good enough coach to bring back sustained success for the Sharks. Cup competitions, while great to win, are somewhat of a lottery. In reality nearly any team can beat anyone on the day. Imo, the only comp that truly matters is the league and our form in the league is laughable. We should NEVER been finishing as low as 8th. Its deeply embarrassing.
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2NFR
Global Moderator
Posts: 6,297
Favourite Team: Newcastle Eagles
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Post by 2NFR on Oct 16, 2019 12:18:36 GMT
Dyb ... Good article, I like reading this type of content/analysis. Keep them coming mate
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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 13:01:13 GMT
Whereas I never really thought that one post would change or influence any ones mind about Atiba, if you dislike a person - you dislike them, end off.
I did feel that the table offered a truer reflection of past achievements rather than people going on memories or even guessing - never out of the top 3 etc etc when they actually were.
Wide comments about records have now been narrowed down to just the league. In total just 4 league championship titles, not many at all and the last back in the Chris Finch era. Now he was a good coach who as gone on to do better things. I started watching in those latter seasons.
If we're just looking at the league, taking away other silverware, I wonder how that compares to other teams? Of course eagles and Riders spring to mind straight way especially with Riders recent successes, but how many times as the league been won? By any team?
As for my closeness to the team and me 'having to' toe the party line, whatever that is? All I can say is that I am a passionate fan of the team that I support, who on game nights will talk to, have conversations with, question 'the management' who I find very welcoming, approachable, friendly, and always happy to have a chat with you. That way you get to know plans, thoughts, how they are etc. Does that make me close to the team?
Much better that than looking from afar and using platforms to help make judgments.
As of yet posts have been mostly about Atiba, what do people think about the situation with SIV, Ponds Forge - current venue and monies not been made available for the new build.
I'm kind of hoping that the prize money from the All Stars will be used to improve the game day experience at Ponds Forge, a video screen?? Or perhaps it would be better spent on the team, improving the bench so that we can once again make a challenge for the Championship or at the very least finish higher than 4th
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therock
Rookie
It doesn’t matter
Posts: 99
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Post by therock on Oct 16, 2019 13:10:21 GMT
Scents had 5 seasons winning 2 trophies and finishing once outside the top 4. Was sacked after the Justice Graham, Raymond McKeithan etc season.
In Atiba’s last 5 season he’s finished outside the top four 3 times and won 1 play off title - 4 seasons ago. In his 11 season career he’s finished outside the top 4 more often than not.
Based on the above alone it’s clear he wouldn’t be coach if Sharks were run as a professional sports club where the manger/coach is accountable for on court performance.
Re the venue - if Sharks could raise the finance they could build a court whereever they wanted. It’s clear they can’t raise the money.
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Post by blueskies99 on Oct 16, 2019 13:45:14 GMT
I'm sure we have had this discussion regrading Atiba before and it worked out that over the past 11 seasons he is the third most successful coach in the BBL behind Fab and Rob Paternostro.
In summary, over 11 seasons.....
4 pieces of silverware 4 runners-up 11 semi-final appearances
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 13:49:00 GMT
I'm sure we have had this discussion regrading Atiba before and it worked out that over the past 11 seasons he is the third most successful coach in the BBL behind Fab and Rob Paternostro.
In summary, over 11 seasons.....
4 pieces of silverware 4 runners-up 11 semi-final appearances
Paul James has won 8 trophies in the last 13 years
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Post by LTFan on Oct 16, 2019 14:14:14 GMT
@dyb dyb Interesting post. By the way, you sent me a PM a few days ago asking why I thought Sharks weren't capable of having successful season this year... I replied, I think you've got the wrong person. I don't think I've ever said that about Sharks, in fact I think they could be in for a much improved season this year.
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Post by blueskies99 on Oct 16, 2019 14:16:18 GMT
I'm sure we have had this discussion regrading Atiba before and it worked out that over the past 11 seasons he is the third most successful coach in the BBL behind Fab and Rob Paternostro.
In summary, over 11 seasons.....
4 pieces of silverware 4 runners-up 11 semi-final appearances
Paul James has won 8 trophies in the last 13 years How many over the last 11 years? (I'm using 11 years as that's how long Atiba has been coaching).
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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 14:21:01 GMT
Re the venue - if Sharks could raise the finance they could build a court whereever they wanted. It’s clear they can’t raise the money. I'm sure that's very clear. Without looking up the figure I cant remember. Was it £10M That's some figure to raise alone. They have gone cap in hand to a number of partners looking for investment including the bank and SCC as well as others. SCC are involved because of the community use etc. I think one way or another SCC have made it clear they would much prefer Sharks playing out of a SIV, especially when they are losing money as highlighted above. How many of the teams that have new venues have financed the project by themselves? Tough ask. Partnerships are needed and when one isn't playing ball...
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Post by DefyingGravity on Oct 16, 2019 14:43:29 GMT
I'd love the Rocks to have won that number of trophies haha
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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 15:49:11 GMT
Paul James has won 8 trophies in the last 13 years How many over the last 11 years? (I'm using 11 years as that's how long Atiba has been coaching). Don't forget we're only counting the league as the others don't really matter as any one can win them and it doesn't really show how good or not that the coach is.
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Post by massiveridersfan on Oct 16, 2019 15:55:59 GMT
@dyb dyb Interesting post. By the way, you sent me a PM a few days ago asking why I thought Sharks weren't capable of having successful season this year... I replied, I think you've got the wrong person. I don't think I've ever said that about Sharks, in fact I think they could be in for a much improved season this year. Barring injuries (and we all know that can happen to any team - but usually Riders) I reckon Sharks will have a very good season.
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Post by sussexbantam on Oct 16, 2019 15:58:11 GMT
Man - I'd settle for winning a game sometime...
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Post by blueskies99 on Oct 16, 2019 17:30:09 GMT
Man - I'd settle for winning a game sometime... I've had some seasons like that supporting the Riders
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 18:29:21 GMT
How many over the last 11 years? (I'm using 11 years as that's how long Atiba has been coaching). Don't forget we're only counting the league as the others don't really matter as any one can win them and it doesn't really show how good or not that the coach is. What seriously? You dont count the others? Next you wont count games when its Tuesday
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therock
Rookie
It doesn’t matter
Posts: 99
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Post by therock on Oct 16, 2019 18:47:06 GMT
What Riders and Eagles have done in getting their ‘own’ venues built is a fantastic achievement that shouldn’t be under-estimated.
It’s not really a criticism of the Sharks that they haven’t (yet?) been able to follow suit but if they can’t get the required partners on-board then the Sharks haven’t proven the case for their part in any new development. Can’t really point at the partners and blame them for making what they must see as the right financial decisions for them and the city just because it doesn’t suit Sharks/MLS.
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Post by Colicab85 on Oct 16, 2019 19:05:26 GMT
How many over the last 11 years? (I'm using 11 years as that's how long Atiba has been coaching). Don't forget we're only counting the league as the others don't really matter as any one can win them and it doesn't really show how good or not that the coach is. Dyb Dyb. You seem to be really salty about people having an opinion that differs to yours. Don’t take it personally? You said you were going to stop trying to convince people to love Atiba. You know that you will never get me to agree with you right? Of course cups and trophies are great to win, it’s great that Atiba has won them. But you know that sustained success is proven by league titles, and that goes for all sports. I would MUCH prefer to be challenging for the league every year than win a cup every 4 years, and so would you I imagine. I’ll repeat. The Sharks are one of the most successful teams in the history of the BBL and for us to finish 8th in the league is totally embarrassing.
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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 19:23:36 GMT
Don't forget we're only counting the league as the others don't really matter as any one can win them and it doesn't really show how good or not that the coach is. What seriously? You dont count the others? Next you wont count games when its Tuesday Not my idea. Apparently it's only about the league. You can forget all the other stuff as anyone can win and you don't need a good coach either I guess.
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Post by dyb dyb on Oct 16, 2019 19:26:00 GMT
What Riders and Eagles have done in getting their ‘own’ venues built is a fantastic achievement that shouldn’t be under-estimated. It’s not really a criticism of the Sharks that they haven’t (yet?) been able to follow suit but if they can’t get the required partners on-board then the Sharks haven’t proven the case for their part in any new development. Can’t really point at the partners and blame them for making what they must see as the right financial decisions for them and the city just because it doesn’t suit Sharks/MLS. I'm not entirely sure that Riders have done it completely on their own. Wheres IRF when you need him? Can any other rider fans help us out here?
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therock
Rookie
It doesn’t matter
Posts: 99
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Post by therock on Oct 16, 2019 19:30:11 GMT
Not saying they’ve done it on their own - the ownership of Riders and Eagles venues has been discussed pretty thoroughly in the past
More than one way to end up with a venue you can call your own without actually owning it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 19:34:50 GMT
Simply
Eagles own ECA Riders own a share in morinig side
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