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Post by SamH on May 6, 2020 18:49:44 GMT
I would add he does come across as an arse a lot of the time but he did and still does a lot for charity, he has done loads with kids and sick kids in the past. I just think professionally he was probably hard work for a lot of people.
Funnily enough I don't see that same level of demanding from him now towards the Hornets, who have never really been very competitive the whole time he's been involved with the franchise.
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Post by connors on May 6, 2020 19:44:31 GMT
Yes he seems remarkably relaxed about owning a struggling franchise with little to no star power.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 20:12:02 GMT
I also disagree and not for fanboy nostalgia, as I said if anything this has reminded me just how great he really was. Obviously talking about who is better, depends what your measuring stick is. If it's rings, MVPs or finals record then it's Mike. If it's PPG and defensive recognition, it's Mike. If it's being responsible for growing the game as a global sport with mass interest, it's Mike. If it's clutch, determination and driving the very best out of team mates, it's Mike. If it's conference championships, it's LeBron (but even then you look at how weak the east has been most of his career). The era is different but isn't it more impressive that a guy averaged 35ppg in an era where teams were winning games by scoring 85 points? The pace is quicker now so there are more shots, more scoring opportunities. Do you think Harden could go off like he does now in the 90s? I doubt it. He'd probably average 22-25 a game. So it's fair to assume if MJ played today he could be averaging 40+. I agree LeBron should have won more than 4 MVPs, but I also think Mike should have won more than 5. If its rings it bill If its final record its McGraw If its ppg its wilt If it's for growing the nba its bird and magic Tgeres some excellent content on the hancheck rule. All superstars that were split their prime inbetween the handcheck rule actually scored more before it became into effect. Not excluding lebron who averaged 22 as an 18 year old rookie in the hand check era |
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Post by SamH on May 6, 2020 20:34:01 GMT
Exactly, it's all different people yet who is right there in those discussions?
What I mean is, you talk about offensive stats, Bill Russell doesn't come up in that discussion. You talk rings, Wilt doesn't come up, nor LeBron. MVPs, Magic doesn't come up. Defense, a whole load of people don't come up. Making those around you better, Kobe doesn't come up.
What's the category where MJ doesn't come up, being a nice friendly teddy bear?
He's there or there abouts in all facets of what makes greatness, he doesn't need to be in first place in every single one though.
ESPN also declared his 95-96 season as the single greatest season any player has ever had this week, I'm not sure how credible their list is but it's supposedly based on some formulas and science and ****.
I'd also argue Bird and Magic saved the NBA and put it back on the American map but it was the whole Air Jordan thing that really got it going globally. That's when TV deals and salaries really started to skyrocket.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 21:03:40 GMT
I'm not going to debate it, people who feel passionately enough to call a player the goat will never change their mind, nor should they really. But since you asked, thing Jordan isnt at that level are things like rebounding, assists, 3 point shooting (yes I know it wasnt as big then), improving players around him, playing a career (how many retirements), but with all the advance stats are your disposal you could claim steph is a terrible shooter and back it up lol.
You do you with MJ, I'll do me with Magic and just keep loving the game.
Can I ask your age tho SamH and Connors for a theory i have, it has nothing to do with the goat debate or jordan or lebron
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Post by connors on May 6, 2020 21:07:04 GMT
Mr Tall. I’d love to read some of that hand check stuff. Never seen that before. Be good to be able to form my own opinion on those revelations so please share the link if you can.
Thanks
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Post by connors on May 6, 2020 21:08:39 GMT
Of course you can ask my age. No problem at all. Ask away mate.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 21:21:32 GMT
Heres a link
How old are you then and who's the greatest dunker of all time
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Post by connors on May 6, 2020 21:36:09 GMT
48.
In game dunks? Struggling to say. I saw a brilliant top 10
Recently. Probably be one of the players in that. I will see if I can find the link.
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Post by connors on May 6, 2020 21:38:42 GMT
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Post by SamH on May 6, 2020 22:15:36 GMT
I mean again I find myself disagreeing Tall, that he didn't make people around him better. He absolutely did because he demanded so much of them.
Have you been watching the documentary? It's already covered Pippen becoming the player he did because Mike pushed him to it, and that Rodman's career was probably saved by going to the Bulls because he had to stay focussed on the job (ok he didn't always manage it but he would have been worse anywhere else) because of Phil, Mike and Scottie. Then you look at guys like Kukoc, Harper, Longley,Oakley...all had their best years playing with the Bulls.
It's a shame you don't want to debate it though, it's not about trying to convert people but seeing the points raised and considering their merit. So why do you rate Magic above him?
I'm 38 if that helps!
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Post by SamH on May 6, 2020 23:37:42 GMT
Oh and I'm not sure what the greatest dunker has to with this but it's Vinsanity for me. Especially his Raptors years. For pure power and aggressive throwdowns you look at Chocolate Thunder, Nique, KG, Griffin. My choice would be Alonzo Mourning though.
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Post by erd87 on May 7, 2020 1:15:03 GMT
I've been really enjoying Last Dance, it's been so interesting just listening to someone as enigmatic as Jordan talking openly about his career. I was 10 when Jordan left the Bulls the final time so never really had a chance to truly appreciate him back then although I obviously understood he was special.
It's always so difficult to compare eras and with having so much spare time I've gone back and watched quite a few full games and I've been quite surprised by what I've seen. It's a completely different game compared to now and a few things jumped out at me. The spacing takes a while to get used to and it's so strange to see how much time guys are given on the perimeter. I also feel that it's a little overblown how tough the game was back then, yeah there are some hard fouls but it's not the rugby match the highlights make it out to be.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 6:41:03 GMT
I agree with Vince Carter being the best dunker too, for me theres no one better. But I put it down to my age and I wonder if the younger kids in their teens would all disagree and say Aaron Gordon. If you look back he probably is but I'd never agree with it. I wonder if it's the same with those who compare lebron and Jordan
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 6:44:45 GMT
Rodman wasnt made better because of Jordan, Rodman was successful in Chicago because he didnt need to take a shot. That doesn't mean he was being made better, if anything it just showed that Jordan could play 5 on 4 offensively and always win.
Pippen was always going to be a star, playing with Jordan didnt make him a better player, just meant he never had the primary defender on him.
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Post by connors on May 7, 2020 10:13:20 GMT
I think playing with Jordan improved players in his team and also enabled them to go on to get good contracts with other teams. I would suggest that for most of the players that was indirect influence from Jordan due to his extremely tough and challenging attitude in practice as well as the success that he massively contributed to, some would say was responsible for, in Chicago. Steve Kerr is on record acknowledging that.
I would actually say he was more directly responsible for improving Pippen.
You can see from my avatar that I’m not solely a Jordan fanboy but if that’s the accusation I’m definitely guilty. If you forced me to pick the greatest in game dunker of all time I’d go for CArter too. What’s your age Tall? How does that stack with your theory?
I also think there is a greater percentage of superlative athletes in the modern NBA but they don’t dunk on people as much because defences and style of play are different. More pick and roll leading to more lob dunks or open lanes. In fact more open lanes in general as teams play smaller and cover the 3. That link I posted I think has 3 dunks on Ewing? One on Zo? Great defensive centres and shot blockers who hung out in the lane and occasionally ended up on a poster or YouTube!
Dames dunk from last season is vicious!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 10:26:55 GMT
I'm 31, my theory is anyone under 22 doesnt think Vince is the greatest dunker of all time. They'd pick someone like blake who mainly dunks but as you say it's all lob dunks rather than coast to coast posters.
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Post by SamH on May 7, 2020 11:12:51 GMT
Ok let's try it another way Tall - why do you place Magic ahead of LeBron as the greatest player?
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Post by ko25 on May 7, 2020 11:16:26 GMT
I'm 31, my theory is anyone under 22 doesnt think Vince is the greatest dunker of all time. They'd pick someone like blake who mainly dunks but as you say it's all lob dunks rather than coast to coast posters. I thought you were much older, it must be the shoes in your avatar!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 11:19:51 GMT
Ok let's try it another way Tall - why do you place Magic ahead of LeBron as the greatest player? Because I don't rank active players against retired ones mate. Still so much can change. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 11:20:06 GMT
I'm 31, my theory is anyone under 22 doesnt think Vince is the greatest dunker of all time. They'd pick someone like blake who mainly dunks but as you say it's all lob dunks rather than coast to coast posters. I thought you were much older, it must be the shoes in your avatar! Wise beyond my years you mean ha ha |
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Post by ko25 on May 7, 2020 11:32:17 GMT
I thought you were much older, it must be the shoes in your avatar! Wise beyond my years you mean ha ha Yeah or something to that effect!  |
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Post by SamH on May 7, 2020 13:16:26 GMT
Ok Tall, so you've made a case for LeBron being better than MJ but now say you don't compare retired and active players. I assume therefore you feel LeBron has already done enough to pass MJ but not Magic. What else do you think he needs to achieve to do that?
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Post by SamH on May 7, 2020 13:21:33 GMT
On the dunking issue, I do enjoy Gordon and I thought this year's slam dunk competition was the best in years and years. The thing is dunking evolves too - you watch the dunk contests in the 80s and those dunks weren't that great compared to now. But they were amazing back then as it was all new. I expect Zion may take it to the next level, at least in game dunks. I'm really pumped up to see his career unfold so I do think I appreciate the current crop too and am not stuck in the era I started with just as when I first watched my Magic and Bird videos having missed them in their time, I absolutely marvelled at what I saw.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 13:48:51 GMT
Ok Tall, so you've made a case for LeBron being better than MJ but now say you don't compare retired and active players. I assume therefore you feel LeBron has already done enough to pass MJ but not Magic. What else do you think he needs to achieve to do that? I dont think hes passed MJ, I think at present his prime was better than Jordan's prime but I wouldn't say hes better than him if that makes sense. Magic better than Jordan yeah |
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