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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 12, 2020 21:13:19 GMT
I couldn't find a thread for this.
It has occurred to me that we talk about the BBL but never the WBBL.
The Sky Sports deal is for the BBL and not the WBBL.
Thanks to Basketball England and Worcester Wolves I watch a bit of WNBL. I don't think I have ever seen any WBBL.
So, my question is, what is the point of the WBBL? My question is not intended to be sexist or disrespectful. I enjoy watching women's basketball. It is just not clear to me what is the difference between WBBL and WNBL. WBBL doesn't have any prospect of being a professional league so why not just have relegation/promotion between the two leagues? What are the major differences between the leagues?
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Post by LTFan on Dec 13, 2020 0:02:22 GMT
The Sky deal includes the WBBL Cup, Trophy and Play Off finals.
That’s something at least. But generally speaking, and being brutally honest, is the WBBL of good enough all round quality for weekly national television coverage? And I’m talking about more than just the level of play when I say that...
By the way, I do attend WBBL games so I don’t mean that as an insult, just an honest opinion.
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Post by samgray on Dec 13, 2020 8:16:30 GMT
What you said is an insult which is why you then felt you had to put the last sentence.
Yes it is good enough, the standard of basketball in the WBBL is incredibly high and I look forward to seeing it on sky.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 9:06:17 GMT
The wbbl has players regularly competing in high level international tournament. Many are professional on the same level at the bbl wise. Womens basketball just isn't as popular yet. The wbbl job has been to raise this and they're doing a great job
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Post by johnhobbs on Dec 13, 2020 10:02:04 GMT
Just to let you know that today’s WNBL Div 1 clash between Solent Kestrels and Worcester Wolves will be streamed on the Basketball England YouTube channel.
Join us from 2:25pm..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 10:44:02 GMT
To answer the first point, the women's basketball community moved on from Bev a long time ago. There appears only a handful of people on here who watch the women's game, so there's not going to be any big debates.
To be of any interest to Sky (or BT, or any mainstream media) the WBBL would need to be playing in decent arenas in front of big crowds. If Sport England threw a small proportion of the cash it's given to help netball & superleague, and they used to money to get the arenas and fill them (even if it's packed out with screaming school kids) it could work. But the TV companies only want to show a limited amount of women's sport - I've just looked, there are 23 sports channels (ignoring things like Liverpool FC TV) and there is currently no women's sport being shown - so it'd be a long battle. And it's one the women's game has to do for itself, only three clubs run a club in the BBL & WBBL (that includes Lions, and that programme is Barking Abbey) and half of the WBBL clubs (including the dormant Hatters) don't have links with a men's club. The men's game isn't strong enough to carry the women's game in the way the Premier League is carrying the women's pro game.
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 13, 2020 11:34:55 GMT
Just to let you know that today’s WNBL Div 1 clash between Solent Kestrels and Worcester Wolves will be streamed on the Basketball England YouTube channel. Join us from 2:25pm.. Thank you. I do hope to watch this. From what I have seen Solent do a really good production job. And Worcester Wolves is my favourite ladies team. |
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Post by LTFan on Dec 13, 2020 12:35:33 GMT
What you said is an insult which is why you then felt you had to put the last sentence. Yes it is good enough, the standard of basketball in the WBBL is incredibly high and I look forward to seeing it on sky. If it sounded like an insult, I apologise. It honestly wasn’t meant to be. I did explicitly say I was questioning the all round quality of the WBBL, not just the level of play. I also said I attend WBBL games - mostly Sevenoaks Suns. So let’s take them as an example. Sevenoaks Suns are arguably the strongest WBBL team. Yet their home court is a private schools leisure centre sports hall without any spectator seating. And they don’t even play there most of the time, they play in Surrey - not only in a different town but in a different county - an hours drive from Sevenoaks. And then there’s the quality of the streaming coverage of their games... which has no commentary, no scoreboard, no timer, and often fails to appear despite being advertised. And this is the most successful WBBL team. My point is, at it’s current level, the overall quality of the WBBL product isn't good enough for anyone to justify weekly national television coverage. I stand by that, and if that’s still an insult I apologise again. If anyone is to blame its Sport England, not those actually in the WBBL. |
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 13, 2020 14:05:56 GMT
What you said is an insult which is why you then felt you had to put the last sentence. Yes it is good enough, the standard of basketball in the WBBL is incredibly high and I look forward to seeing it on sky. If it sounded like an insult, I apologise. It honestly wasn’t meant to be. I did explicitly say I was questioning the all round quality of the WBBL, not just the level of play. I also said I attend WBBL games - mostly Sevenoaks Suns. So let’s take them as an example. Sevenoaks Suns are arguably the strongest WBBL team. Yet their home court is a private schools leisure centre sports hall without any spectator seating. And they don’t even play there most of the time, they play in Surrey - not only in a different town but in a different county - an hours drive from Sevenoaks. And then there’s the quality of the streaming coverage of their games... which has no commentary, no scoreboard, no timer, and often fails to appear despite being advertised. And this is the most successful WBBL team. My point is, at it’s current level, the overall quality of the WBBL product isn't good enough for anyone to justify weekly national television coverage. I stand by that, and if that’s still an insult I apologise again. If anyone is to blame its Sport England, not those actually in the WBBL. As they play some of their home games at Surrey Sports Park, it wouldn't be a huge leap for them to be partly brought within the University of Surrey sports brand, and have access to their match day production team and marketing team. They could be the Sevenoaks and Surrey Suns. Sounds like a win-win to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 14:08:15 GMT
And that was my point, the standard of venues and size of crowds would be an instant turn off for a TV company. I know they could piggy back games at Newcastle, Leicester and Copper Box but I'm not sure how many people would do both games.
So why do Suns play at SSP? I've been wondering for a while
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 13, 2020 14:15:22 GMT
And that was my point, the standard of venues and size of crowds would be an instant turn off for a TV company. I know they could piggy back games at Newcastle, Leicester and Copper Box but I'm not sure how many people would do both games. So why do Suns play at SSP? I've been wondering for a while They could piggy back, but if they do it needs to be on a weekend and put the ladies on first. Always better to see the arena filling up during the game, rather than clearing out. If it's a Sky Sports broadcasted game they should throw the women's game in for free but on the condition that you have to arrive early and watch both. |
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Post by LTFan on Dec 13, 2020 14:24:17 GMT
And that was my point, the standard of venues and size of crowds would be an instant turn off for a TV company. I know they could piggy back games at Newcastle, Leicester and Copper Box but I'm not sure how many people would do both games. So why do Suns play at SSP? I've been wondering for a while Exactly my point. As for Sevenoaks playing home games in Surrey - I have no idea. I mean, I get that their leisure centre sports hall might not always be available... but then why Surrey - an hours drive away from Sevenoaks?! There were plans for them to have their own area in Swanley, conveniently right on J3 of the M25. Would have likely resulted in a name change, but at least Swanley is still in Kent, and only about 30mins drive from Sevenoaks. But it all went very quiet a while ago so I guess those plans fell through. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 14:29:37 GMT
I can't see Mr, Mrs & Miss Busch uprooting the whole club to Guildford. Playing there ten times each season is not the same as being based there. They manage to be one of the bigger spenders in the WBBL despite (virtually) no one watching
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Post by LTFan on Dec 13, 2020 17:19:22 GMT
I can't see Mr, Mrs & Miss Busch uprooting the whole club to Guildford. Playing there ten times each season is not the same as being based there. They manage to be one of the bigger spenders in the WBBL despite (virtually) no one watching I agree. But can you legitimately claim to be the ‘Sevenoaks’ Suns if you play most of your home games in a different county over an hour away!? Full disclosure - I live quite close to Sevenoaks, so having most of their home games an hours drive away at the Surrey Sports Park is really inconvenient for me! Every home game feels like an away game!  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 19:58:55 GMT
I presume the WBBL have imposed some standards, and that's the only place they've managed to get
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Post by dandayr on Dec 13, 2020 23:50:33 GMT
2 venues 1hr apart - a Caledonia Pride fan and season ticket holder would have seen that as a piece of cake last season
The Edinburgh side played some home games away from their Edi Uni home - they went to Glasgow, Stirling and on covid shutdown weekend should have been in Falkirk and also had a game planned for Dundee. So should have been at least 5 home venues.
Past season have played home game in Paisley.
I believe a big factor is about role model and inspiring girls so they take the team round the country as a way of showing heir is a pathway to aim for.
I will give you though if the Pride fan is based in Edinburgh - with kind traffic, each venue they were using could be reached in an hour or less, they just had to remember which one they were going to that week.
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 14, 2020 2:01:44 GMT
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Post by LTFan on Dec 14, 2020 10:46:50 GMT
Here's the detail on Sevenoaks Sun's plans to build a custom community arena in Swanley (12 miles from Sevenoaks, as opposed to Guildford being 40 miles from Sevenoaks). The article is 2 years old so I don't know whether it's still likely or not. It states "the move away from The Sennocke Centre at Sevenoaks School is due to no sufficient seating, which is needed to meet both the upcoming changes to the Women’s British Basketball League (WBBL) arena requirements, and the requirements to compete in top European club competitions."It's a good article regardless, and if it ever happens I think it would mean Sevenoaks would have the best custom WBBL arena (excluding those who share BBL facilities). Which, considering Sevenoaks are the best in the WBBL right now, is the sort of thing the WBBL should be aiming for. sevenoakssports.co.uk/exclusive-sevenoaks-suns-are-on-the-move-to-olympic-site-in-swanley |
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Post by LTFan on Dec 14, 2020 10:55:43 GMT
Found something more recently, essentially saying the Sevenoaks Suns are struggling to survive - despite being the most successful club in the WBBL right now. Some highlights: For the Suns, the cost of a WBBL season can be anywhere between £55,000 and £70,000, depending on how the season goes and any extra expenses incurred along the way.
The money covers player salaries, court hire for training, travel to away matches and hosting home matches without having a dedicated Suns court.
As things stand the Suns are the only WBBL club who don’t have their own facility to train and play in, instead the two-time league champions play their home matches at Sevenoaks School.
A new home is in the planning stage to be built in Swanley, but meanwhile the Suns have bigger challenges.
“We’ve been locked out of Sevenoaks School, which is a big problem for us,” Busch added.
“We’ve used that court five nights a week and for ten hours every weekend for 15 years and we need to replace it.
“The WBBL team will play at Surrey Sports Park we’ve agreed, but I need to find a practice court.
I'd love to know why they've been locked out of Sevenoaks School - their home for the past 15 years... There's also a link to their Crown Funder page, which I donated to a while back. www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/help-us-keep-suns-rising-says-basketball-coach/ |
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Post by swimmingbadger on Dec 14, 2020 11:04:05 GMT
And that was my point, the standard of venues and size of crowds would be an instant turn off for a TV company. I know they could piggy back games at Newcastle, Leicester and Copper Box but I'm not sure how many people would do both games. So why do Suns play at SSP? I've been wondering for a while They could piggy back, but if they do it needs to be on a weekend and put the ladies on first. Always better to see the arena filling up during the game, rather than clearing out. If it's a Sky Sports broadcasted game they should throw the women's game in for free but on the condition that you have to arrive early and watch both. How would you force people to watch a women's game they have no interest in? Kidnap them and drug them? Riders experimented with running men's and women's games on the same day but only about five people showed up early. |
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 14, 2020 11:22:42 GMT
I hope they get their sports centre. But regardless, that is how you write a positive article about a successful sports team.
Contrast that with Worthing Thunder's pitiful cap in hand hangdog article and general wretched image.
Both clubs are lacking a venue but there is a way of presenting oneself.
No offense Worthing fans. I'm a well wisher.
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 14, 2020 11:28:38 GMT
They could piggy back, but if they do it needs to be on a weekend and put the ladies on first. Always better to see the arena filling up during the game, rather than clearing out. If it's a Sky Sports broadcasted game they should throw the women's game in for free but on the condition that you have to arrive early and watch both. How would you force people to watch a women's game they have no interest in? Kidnap them and drug them? Riders experimented with running men's and women's games on the same day but only about five people showed up early. I'm not suggesting anything illegal or immoral. I'm just saying for a Sky Sports game they have to be there for the women's game or they don't get in. You can't prevent people from leaving. Or give them free chips if they arrive for the women's game. |
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Post by swimmingbadger on Dec 14, 2020 12:05:24 GMT
How would you force people to watch a women's game they have no interest in? Kidnap them and drug them? Riders experimented with running men's and women's games on the same day but only about five people showed up early. I'm not suggesting anything illegal or immoral. I'm just saying for a Sky Sports game they have to be there for the women's game or they don't get in. You can't prevent people from leaving. Or give them free chips if they arrive for the women's game. Women's basketball, cheap as chips. There's your tagline right there. You can't force people to attend something they have little or no interest in just to make it look "nice" on tv. The average basketball fan with kids, with the best will in the world, isn't going to give up an extra three hours of their weekend/evening to watch a women's game. If you make it a condition of attendance for the men's game most people will just sack it off. |
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Post by chesterdonnelly on Dec 14, 2020 13:45:54 GMT
I'm not suggesting anything illegal or immoral. I'm just saying for a Sky Sports game they have to be there for the women's game or they don't get in. You can't prevent people from leaving. Or give them free chips if they arrive for the women's game. Women's basketball, cheap as chips. There's your tagline right there. You can't force people to attend something they have little or no interest in just to make it look "nice" on tv. The average basketball fan with kids, with the best will in the world, isn't going to give up an extra three hours of their weekend/evening to watch a women's game. If you make it a condition of attendance for the men's game most people will just sack it off. You're right. It's up to women's basketball to build its own product. I'm not sure the WBBL is the right way to go about it. The WNBL is pretty good. The BBL is doing well but not well enough to worry about the WBBL. I don't think it's wise for women's basketball clubs to burden themselves with venue standards they can't meet, like 500 seats (mostly empty). |
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Post by dandayr on Dec 14, 2020 15:17:56 GMT
as has been mentioned - folk will only attend what is of interest to them on the day.
The Trophy final day in Glasgow always has at least one other game as part of the ticket price, but just cause its paid for doesn't mean people want to watch it.
The last one I was at - if the BBL Trophy final crowd was 5000 range then the folk that arrived to see at least most of the WBBL Trophy was closer to 1000 range (which I believe based on WBBL lge crowds was still a decent crowd)
and that is not a reflection of WBBL, it is just a reflection of people chose the BBL Trophy as one game was enough for them.
some years the first game was two Scottish leage sides, other time it was Rocks v Scotland and they did not get the majority to arrive early either
then there was the year they added a Rocks lge game to tip after the final - even that saw a fair number watch the Final but not stay for the Rocks game.
(travel plans, especially school groups in attendance, influences if watch 1 or 2 games and the rare occasion 3)
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