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Post by faz on Feb 9, 2016 23:59:18 GMT
The premier is predominately under 13s and 14s whereas the development tends to be 13s and below
The prem is physically much stronger, faster and more intense. In the north west the stronger teams would compete with the weaker teams in the prem
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 10, 2016 0:02:35 GMT
The premier is predominately under 13s and 14s whereas the development tends to be 13s and below The prem is physically much stronger, faster and more intense. In the north west the stronger teams would compete with the weaker teams in the prem From what I've seen at these ages in development League one or two players on each team stand out and normally decide the results between them Do the teams get promoted to Premier League or do they just choose where they want to be? |
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Post by faz on Feb 10, 2016 0:17:46 GMT
Not totally sure but I think it may be applications and England basketball decide. Looking at the north premier teams I think birmingham, Sheffield, Wire, Magic and giants have development teams. Don't think mansfield and Northampton do so it's difficult to ascertain which teams in the development would be eligible age wise for the premie next year. 1 or 2 stand out players do make a huge difference especially if they're big. The effectiveness of the structure really depends on getting the selection right. We played Phoenix who i think a re predominately 13/14 and it was literally young men against boys. 3 months later as our lads had grown a bit it became a much better contest. You're right about the coaches Bury got a new coach mid seson and have really improved from where they started.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 10, 2016 0:24:56 GMT
Not totally sure but I think it may be applications and England basketball decide. Looking at the north premier teams I think birmingham, Sheffield, Wire, Magic and giants have development teams. Don't think mansfield and Northampton do so it's difficult to ascertain which teams in the development would be eligible age wise for the premie next year. 1 or 2 stand out players do make a huge difference especially if they're big. The effectiveness of the structure really depends on getting the selection right. We played Phoenix who i think a re predominately 13/14 and it was literally young men against boys. 3 months later as our lads had grown a bit it became a much better contest. You're right about the coaches Bury got a new coach mid seson and have really improved from where they started. Need a lot of contact time as well with the players Helps our 12s team that 7 or 8 go to same school so train together a lot under the same coach at school and at the club team I doubt many teams have that advantage And this guy is an example of a great coach who you can trust the player with entirely IMO |
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Post by DefyingGravity on Feb 10, 2016 9:51:25 GMT
Indeed I'm club secretary at a basketball club in Cumbernauld, and our cadette, junior and senior women teams all play in Scottish Division 1 National League. I'm assuming that this "merger" only concerns male teams because this thread is the first I've heard of it... On the subject of parents at sports clubs, has anyone seen the documentary Trophy Kids on Netflix? Here is an edited version of it (I'm pretty sure the version on Netflix is longer). Interesting video. I hadn't heard of it before. I suppose you could go to the opposite end of the spectrum with this too - you have kids who clearly have talent but the parents show no interest in allowing that talent to be developed. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 10, 2016 11:49:08 GMT
Indeed I'm club secretary at a basketball club in Cumbernauld, and our cadette, junior and senior women teams all play in Scottish Division 1 National League. I'm assuming that this "merger" only concerns male teams because this thread is the first I've heard of it... On the subject of parents at sports clubs, has anyone seen the documentary Trophy Kids on Netflix? Here is an edited version of it (I'm pretty sure the version on Netflix is longer). Interesting video. I hadn't heard of it before. I suppose you could go to the opposite end of the spectrum with this too - you have kids who clearly have talent but the parents show no interest in allowing that talent to be developed. Two books you could read whatever sport that interests you are Open by Andre Agassi - imo the best sports book ever written and incredible story of a parent shaping a child's sports future and the life he led If you buy that book as a sports fan you simply won't be able to put it down And if you want a book that gives an insight into a pushy parent but the success that the pushy parent could achieve then read the book called Venus and Serena. My seven years as hitting coach. By Dave Rineberg. Incredible story as well. All about how the dad watched tennis on TV, saw the rewards and had two more children with the one aim to turn them into tennis champions and how he made it happen for them. Fascinating stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 9:30:47 GMT
I agree with Faz. After being a sceptic, I think the restructure has brought some advantages and across all the age groups the Premier games seem to be more competetive and the development leagues provide competition due to the mixed age range (eg I coach an U15 team in the U16 league).
Still some niggles though. Firstly the placement of teams in Premier - not altogether transparent (application process and appeal) - and clearly a couple of mistakes. Criteria seems to be down to whether a team was strong in that Premier age group the season before, which doesn't make sense if all the players have moved up. Secondly, playing up - my 14 year old son who plays U16 Development, now can only play up against U18s. The physical difference can be significant!
As an aside I think there is a big gulf between the mid to top u14 prem and the development leagues
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 11:46:43 GMT
I agree with Faz. After being a sceptic, I think the restructure has brought some advantages and across all the age groups the Premier games seem to be more competetive and the development leagues provide competition due to the mixed age range (eg I coach an U15 team in the U16 league). Still some niggles though. Firstly the placement of teams in Premier - not altogether transparent (application process and appeal) - and clearly a couple of mistakes. Criteria seems to be down to whether a team was strong in that Premier age group the season before, which doesn't make sense if all the players have moved up. Secondly, playing up - my 14 year old son who plays U16 Development, now can only play up against U18s. The physical difference can be significant! As an aside I think there is a big gulf between the mid to top u14 prem and the development leagues Surely if your son is age 14 playing in under 16 league he is already playing a year up though? |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Feb 11, 2016 11:55:42 GMT
I agree with Faz. After being a sceptic, I think the restructure has brought some advantages and across all the age groups the Premier games seem to be more competetive and the development leagues provide competition due to the mixed age range (eg I coach an U15 team in the U16 league). Still some niggles though. Firstly the placement of teams in Premier - not altogether transparent (application process and appeal) - and clearly a couple of mistakes. Criteria seems to be down to whether a team was strong in that Premier age group the season before, which doesn't make sense if all the players have moved up. Secondly, playing up - my 14 year old son who plays U16 Development, now can only play up against U18s. The physical difference can be significant! As an aside I think there is a big gulf between the mid to top u14 prem and the development leagues Surely if your son is age 14 playing in under 16 league he is already playing a year up though? Think he'd essentially be an U15, i.e. first year of U16s. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 12:00:35 GMT
Surely if your son is age 14 playing in under 16 league he is already playing a year up though? Think he'd essentially be an U15, i.e. first year of U16s. That's what I thought so he has the choice of just playing upto one year up with under 16s or upto three years up with under 18s? In under 16s lots of kids will be older than him as it stands |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Feb 11, 2016 12:59:30 GMT
There is literally no alternative.
Basketball England in all their glory did away with the U15s.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 13:01:46 GMT
There is literally no alternative. Basketball England in all their glory did away with the U15s. But to me that's a good choice if you want to play up. (in response to poster above who seems happy for his son to play up) I'm thinking the kids with most problems are the ones who don't want to play up and would rather compete with kids same year as them They are forced to play a year up every other year |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 13:04:56 GMT
I'm kind of thinking that until there are loads more juniors playing that having agegroups that cover 2 years works ok ish
If more kids played they could have agegroups for each year
But I reckon lots would still play up given the chance
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Post by faz on Feb 11, 2016 14:05:42 GMT
I agree with Faz. After being a sceptic, I think the restructure has brought some advantages and across all the age groups the Premier games seem to be more competetive and the development leagues provide competition due to the mixed age range (eg I coach an U15 team in the U16 league). Still some niggles though. Firstly the placement of teams in Premier - not altogether transparent (application process and appeal) - and clearly a couple of mistakes. Criteria seems to be down to whether a team was strong in that Premier age group the season before, which doesn't make sense if all the players have moved up. Secondly, playing up - my 14 year old son who plays U16 Development, now can only play up against U18s. The physical difference can be significant! As an aside I think there is a big gulf between the mid to top u14 prem and the development leagues I'd guessed that the criteria might be historical, which as you say is a nonsense. There has to be some sense from the club as to whether they are suitable. a good year may be had, lose a couple of players to a rival and you might not be competitive in the premier league the following year. Also agree about the standard from top to middle of the prem being significantly better than the development leagues. To decide who plays prem the next year must be a nightmare. A team winning the development league could be essentially be 14 so not eligible for the following year and have a really weak under 13s team, whereas a team finishing mid table could be an under 13s team and thus be eligible for the under 14 prem the following year. |
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Post by faz on Feb 11, 2016 14:11:39 GMT
Looking at the under 14 north east development league i'm guessing Durham, Doncaster, Tees Valley etc effectively the top 6 are under 14s whilst Sheffield 2 are under 13s. On that basis then sheffield should play prem the following year.
What about a series of play off games if the chic is unclear?
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 14:19:23 GMT
It's clearly complicated due to the 2 year age gap
In junior football you get promoted at under 14 then your team goes up a league at under 15s year after
As most of you will know
Doesn't seem to be an easy or obvious answer tbh
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Post by hoopmasterfunk on Feb 11, 2016 15:10:17 GMT
I think more work needs to be done at local level for Juniors.. E.g. the Sherwood League in nottingham is a Junior Local League..
The more competitive we make junior basketball at local level the better the standard/participation at National League Level..
I would also stagger the age groups so that it sits at local level: U11 u13 u15 u17 filling the void in the JNBL
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Post by connors on Feb 11, 2016 16:54:20 GMT
For me the issues in Junior basketball are just a reflection of senior regional basketball. Most junior players will not go on to play adult Nat League. Most will, if they carry on playing, briefly play at Uni and/or then go on to a regional league. In my experience in West London and now the Northeast those leagues are shrinking and combining. This means fewer clubs and longer travelling. The Wessex league incorporates teams from 4 large counties!!
Fewer clubs means fewer youth opportunities. It would be a great shame if the majority of junior basketball was only affiliated to National League teams. How many junior regional leagues even exist? No wonder we lose players to other sports where it is easier for the players and parents to participate.
On a related topic what is "entry level" for junior basketball these days? U11.
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Post by hoopmasterfunk on Feb 11, 2016 17:17:08 GMT
For me the issues in Junior basketball are just a reflection of senior regional basketball. Most junior players will not go on to play adult Nat League. Most will, if they carry on playing, briefly play at Uni and/or then go on to a regional league. In my experience in West London and now the Northeast those leagues are shrinking and combining. This means fewer clubs and longer travelling. The Wessex league incorporates teams from 4 large counties!! Fewer clubs means fewer youth opportunities. It would be a great shame if the majority of junior basketball was only affiliated to National League teams. How many junior regional leagues even exist? No wonder we lose players to other sports where it is easier for the players and parents to participate. On a related topic what is "entry level" for junior basketball these days? U11. U12s |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 17:46:25 GMT
For me the issues in Junior basketball are just a reflection of senior regional basketball. Most junior players will not go on to play adult Nat League. Most will, if they carry on playing, briefly play at Uni and/or then go on to a regional league. In my experience in West London and now the Northeast those leagues are shrinking and combining. This means fewer clubs and longer travelling. The Wessex league incorporates teams from 4 large counties!! Fewer clubs means fewer youth opportunities. It would be a great shame if the majority of junior basketball was only affiliated to National League teams. How many junior regional leagues even exist? No wonder we lose players to other sports where it is easier for the players and parents to participate. On a related topic what is "entry level" for junior basketball these days? U11. U12s Although lots of schools are playing mini basketball in primary school now That's how my son started playing. Age about 10 |
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Post by connors on Feb 11, 2016 19:00:17 GMT
So only about 6 years for football to brainwash then before they have a stab at basketball. We ballers with kids need to keep the fires burning!  ? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 19:03:40 GMT
Some good points well made. There is no simple answer to the promotion / relegation issue and it affects different clubs in different ways. I am involved with a club that has 1+ team at every age group (eg 00/01, 01/02) etc. The old league structure suited us well.
The other thing to throw into the mix are the aase academies who come in as the elite programme at post 16 and are unable to develop players prior to that so seek to recruit the best players from community based national league clubs. Not necessarily wrong but as presently set up I can't see this as a sustainable model...
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Post by interestedridersfan on Feb 11, 2016 19:23:21 GMT
I come from a football background
The pro clubs cherry pick the best grassroots club players
In a similar way to the pro clubs in BBL I guess. Or in a similar way to the AASE taking them at 16.
Just that in football they sign them at under 9 agegroup
And I suspect that in football it's very hard for a young player or his family to turn down an offer to join the academy of a pro football club as it's very flattering and almost always a significant increase in quality and standards
With basketball the difference may not be so obvious and certainly in many cases the non affiliated junior basketball teams are better than the affiliated ones
But club teams can't last forever - kids start heading their separate ways regardless by age of 16 let's be honest
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Post by faz on Feb 11, 2016 20:55:59 GMT
In Warrington there are a number of junior leagues but start at year 5./6
I noticed that phoenix have started sessions on a Saturday for primary school kids. No doubt a Bricey initiative. Well done to him. I couldn't understand why there was no development of junior clubs and Leagues in the chester Ellesmere port area given that they knew the new facility was happening. I guess the community person was too busy securing a different post for the following year. Knowing a little about the phoenix general manager I wouldn't be surprised to see this in the near future. A local league system that is in chester / Ellesmere Port rather than being head coach of the Nix next year. There again stranger things have happened in chester basketball
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 7:55:37 GMT
league structure underneath the pro league will be interesting once the merger happens. cross border cups. though as hersey said some teams can't really afford that. hopefully the correct consultation takes place as like most sports the clubs always seem to be left out Indeed. I'm club secretary at a basketball club in Cumbernauld, and our cadette, junior and senior women teams all play in Scottish Division 1 National League. I'm assuming that this "merger" only concerns male teams because this thread is the first I've heard of it... I'm the general manager of an NBL Div One club (the champions - I may as well drop that in, it won't be true soon  ), we've heard exactly nothing. I very much doubt anything will change for next season. I don't see how any change could be forced upon only male teams but I doubt there's any appetite for it, either side of the border. We have enough things to spend our limited funds on without increasing our travel bill.
FWIW, I can't see the new NGB going straight into battle with the BBL, either. Evolution would be preferable to revolution.
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), we've heard exactly nothing. I very much doubt anything will change for next season. I don't see how any change could be forced upon only male teams but I doubt there's any appetite for it, either side of the border. We have enough things to spend our limited funds on without increasing our travel bill.