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History
Jan 21, 2021 1:24:15 GMT
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Post by imahornet10 on Jan 21, 2021 1:24:15 GMT
Hey is there any info from founders cup from 2004 also any div 4 north info from 2005/06. I played for wirral Hornets at that time and sadly in 2020 we lost our coach mr Anthony whitehead. It would just be great to be able to look back. All news welcome
Thanks
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 22, 2021 22:39:36 GMT
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Post by imahornet10 on Jan 23, 2021 18:10:12 GMT
I'm cocka HOOP with this.( see what I did there hoop hehe). But seriously thank you. Does it say who we played in the 2003/04 final ?
I've sent it straight to the boys from the team and there messaging back as I text you thanks again
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Post by allstring on Jan 24, 2021 2:02:24 GMT
I'm cocka HOOP with this.( see what I did there hoop hehe). But seriously thank you. Does it say who we played in the 2003/04 final ? I've sent it straight to the boys from the team and there messaging back as I text you thanks again Columbans 87 Wirral Hornets 73 in Peterborough. Does that sound feasible? From what I can work out Columbans were St.Albans based and one of the most successful teams in the Founders Cup, with the win against Wirral being their third (in five years including a loss in the final). So looks like you came up against a tough opponent. I believe the team would have been from (or closely related to) St.Columbus College in St.Albans. An independent college from which I immediately recognise some of their alumni; Mick Luckhurst (for those of you who followed NFL on Channel 4 from its start in November 1982, where he was first a Kicker at Atlanta and then a presenter), Peter Townsend (Ryder Cup Golfer, although I only knew of him later in is career) and briefly Sacha Baron Cohen. I'd suggest it's highly likely a recent leaver, footballer teenager Noni Madueke currently at PSV will represent the England full team at some point in the not too distant future.
The Old Columbans hold an Annual Basketball tournament and it looks highly likely some of those players featured in 2004. You may want to get in contact with them and see what informatin they have from that final.
As an aside I think Bracknell was the "Mecca" in terms of hosting one-off Founders Cup Finals. Ok I'm over hyping but it does appear that Bracknell was the most used venue ( 4 times). We were discussing the Hemel/Watford Royals/Rebels "naming muddle" on another thread and it looks like Watford Royals were a team way back in 1976. And a Watford Royals U-18 team winning th National Cup way back in 1963 and also 1964 both at the Albert Hall.
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 24, 2021 10:48:43 GMT
Yep heres a link to Founders Cup Finals going up to 2012, the rest should be on the modern day EB website. web.archive.org/web/20120801002132/http://www.englandbasketball.co.uk/articles/article.aspx?aid=138&pid=378Again unrelated but one thing I always used to wonder about was why there wasnt a National Cup Final in 1956. Every list of past finals always had a gap in 1956 with no explanation why. Well if you look at the above list of Founders Cup Finals you will see there were 2 Founders Cup Finals in 1956, so I wonder of one of them was the National Cup Final that got reclassified at a later date. The plot thickens as I now notice the National Cup Finals list on Wiki was updated last week to show one of those 2 1956 Founders Cup Finals as the 1956 National Cup Final. I wonder whats going on there. Maybe some kind of re re classification has taken place. I might bring this up on Facebook later to see if anyone knows why.
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Post by allstring on Jan 24, 2021 18:48:41 GMT
Hey is there any info from founders cup from 2004 also any div 4 north info from 2005/06. I played for wirral Hornets at that time and sadly in 2020 we lost our coach mr Anthony whitehead. It would just be great to be able to look back. All news welcome Thanks These are the Wirral players I could find over an eleven year period as juniors, through the Founder Cup Final, and the four years in the League. Although not the most successful season, 08-09 looks like a good team with the main scoring coming from Chris Whitehead, Matt Barden and Rhys Platten and the main rebounding from Tom Wilkinson and Karl Siteine. I’m sure some players played more of the seasons than I’ve listed, but I have no definitive evidence and it’s possible one or two didn’t play in seasons they had initially agreed to. Hopefully some names you remember and with whom you are still in touch with. Chris and Sean being Anthony’s sons I believe. Chris Whitehead 5’11” Guard 00-01 (Juniors) 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09, 9-10, 10-11 Sean Whitehead 00-01 (Juniors), 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09 James Rood 6’1” Forward 00-01 (Juniors), 07-08 Phil Price 00-01 (Juniors) Steve Allen 6’5” Centre 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09 Colin Rivett 04-05 Tom Wilkinson Big Man 05-06, 08-09 Ciaran Green 6’4” Guard 05-06, 07-08, 08-09 Terry Evans 5’11” Guard 05-06, 07.08, 08-09 Dominic Green 6’4” Forward 05-06, 07-08 Martin Klabou 6’5” Forward 05-06, 07-08 Matthew Higgins 05-06 Lee Irving 05-06 Rhys Platten 6’0” Guard 07-08, 08-09 Christian Single 6’3” Forward 07-08, 08-09 Lee Irvin 6’0” Guard 07-08 Eric Wilding 6’5” Centre 07-08 Matt Barden 6’3” Guard 08-09, 10-11 Karl Siteine 08-09 Stephen Welsh 08-09 ? Parker 09-10
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 24, 2021 19:39:27 GMT
Wow Allstring, how did you find all of that out.
By the way I have now been informed about the 1956 Cup Final debacle. The Final between Oxford University and Hoddesdon was the National Championship final that year, a newspaper clipping that has been discovered proves this. Back then there were 2 National Championships. The Closed Championship which we now know as the National Cup and the Open Championship which we now know as the Founders Cup. The closed championship presumably restricted the amount of Foreign involvement in the competition whilst the Open Championship didnt (although we dont know that bit for sure). Oxford University were of course known for having access to some good Americans back in those days and right into the 70s so there inclusion in the competition probably meant that it couldnt be considered closed anymore so the classifications of the competitions would change from then on.
But of course here we are 65 years on and the closed championship/national championship/national cup as we all know has evolved many times over the decades. in 1978 the championship would become what we now know as the Play Offs and at that time the Cup was considered the new competition. Basketball historians (if there is such a thing) would realign those competitions in later years. And as most will remember the BBL brake away from the competition in 2003, the history books have the NBL Cup as the coninuation and rightly so but most will probably see more familiarity in the BBL Cup. So here 65 years on it seems silly to have both the 1956 Finals under one competition so it has been rightly corrected on Wiki. I will do so on my tin pot results blog as well just in case it matters lol.
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 24, 2021 19:41:07 GMT
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Post by allstring on Jan 24, 2021 23:24:25 GMT
League Results I can find for the Wirral Hornets. May be able to find one or two more and will update if I do.
League Season 1 2007-08
29(or30)/9/07 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) 71-61 Liverpool (Div 3) –National Cup Round 1 6(or7)/10/07 Wear Valley Warriors (Div 4) 93-75 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) - EBL Shield Round 1 14/10/07 Sefton Stars 106-71 Wirral Hornets 21/10/07 Leeds Carnegie (Div 3) 95-74 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) – National Cup Round 2 27/10/07 Wirral Hornets 97-74 Tees Valley Mohawks II 10/11/07 Wear Valley Warriors 61-65 Wirral Hornets 2/12/07 Mansfield WNC 91-73 Wirral Hornets 8/12/07 Wirral Hornets 76-69 Stockport Falcons 16/12/07 Tyne Met Trojans 78-82 Wirral Hornets 5/1/08 Wirral Hornets 84-97 Bury Blue Devils 13/1/08 Wirral Hornets 80-64 Ilkeston Outlaws 19/1/08 Wirral Hornets 71-86 Sefton Stars 26/1/08 Tees Valley Mohawks II 58-61 Wirral Hornets 2/2/08 Wirral Hornets 117-71 Wear Valley Warriors 16/2/08 Wirral Hornets 88-85 Mansfield WNC 23/2/08 Stockport Falcons - Wirral Hornets 1/3/08 Wirral Hornets - Tyne Met Trojans 8/3/08 Bury Blue Devils - Wirral Hornets 15/3/08 Ilkeston Outlaws - Wirral Hornets
League Season 2 2008-09
20(or21)/9/08 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) 58-72 Bradford Maroons (Div 3) – EBL Shield Round 1 27/9/08 Ilkeston Outlaws 77-58 Wirral Hornets 28/9/08 Huddersfield Heat (Div 3) 68-94 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) – National Cup Round 1 5/10/08 Wirral Hornets 58-91 Leeds Carnegie II 11/10/08 Team Durham Wildcats 65-76 Wirral Hornets 19/10/08 Wirral Hornets – Stockport Falcons 19/10/08 Manchester Magic (Div 1) 118-59 Wirral Hornets (Div 4) – National Cup Round 2 2/11/08 Reddish Rebels 60-81 Wirral Hornets 9/11/08 Wirral Hornets 81–67 Tees Valley Mohawks II 15/11/08 Liverpool 58-69 Wirral Hornets 23/11/08 Wirral Hornets 73–62 Wear Valley Warriors 29/11/08 Tyne Met Trojans 78–68 Wirral Hornets 7/12/08 Wirral Hornets 78-72 Bury Blue Devils 14/12/08 Wirral Hornets 66-75 Hull Wasps 21/12/08 Wirral Hornets 71-32 Ilkeston Outlaws 10/1/09 Leeds Carnegie II - Wirral Hornets 18/1/09 Wirral Hornets – Team Durham Wildcats 24/1/09 Stockport Falcons - Wirral Hornets 1/2/09 Wirral Hornets - Reddish Rebels 7/2/09 Tees Valley Mohawks II - Wirral Hornets 15/2/09 Wirral Hornets - Liverpool 21/2/09 Wirral Hornets – Wear Valley Warriors 22/2/09 Wirral Hornets – Tyne Met Trojans 28/2/09 Bury Blue Devils - Wirral Hornets 7/3/09 Hull Wasps - Wirral Hornets
League Season 3 2009-10
Full fixture list but I can only find 4 results
25/10/09 Wirral Hornets 75-86 Huddersfield Heat 17/10/09 Wirral Hornets 71-44 Merseyside Spartans 3/10/09 Wirral Hornets 86-85 Tees Valley Sonics 10/10/09 Bury Blue Devils 76-64 Wirral Hornets
National Cup – Did Not Enter it appears EBL Shield - Did Not Enter it appears
League Season 4 2010-11
Not much. Possibly a 22 point win away to Middlesbrough Lions
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 25, 2021 18:43:34 GMT
We were discussing the Hemel/Watford Royals/Rebels "naming muddle" on another thread and it looks like Watford Royals were a team way back in 1976. And a Watford Royals U-18 team winning th National Cup way back in 1963 and also 1964 both at the Albert Hall. Interesting. I can't see how they could be related to the Hemel & Watford Royals - the name the current Lions played under in 1997–1998 - as it seems pretty clear that they were formed in 1977 and there was so certainly no talk of a merger in '97. But looking through pawprint etc it's clear that suffixes regularly reappear, presumably due to nostalgia. Whether Watford Rebels (who played in D2 in 89/90 before becoming the first Ware Rebels) were related to Watford Royals in any way is, I guess, the next question for SM11 to spend hours solving
If you're bored, I've added some new stuff to the Leopards' history site.
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 25, 2021 19:02:50 GMT
Wow Allstring, how did you find all of that out. By the way I have now been informed about the 1956 Cup Final debacle. The Final between Oxford University and Hoddesdon was the National Championship final that year, a newspaper clipping that has been discovered proves this. Back then there were 2 National Championships. The Closed Championship which we now know as the National Cup and the Open Championship which we now know as the Founders Cup. The closed championship presumably restricted the amount of Foreign involvement in the competition whilst the Open Championship didnt (although we dont know that bit for sure). Oxford University were of course known for having access to some good Americans back in those days and right into the 70s so there inclusion in the competition probably meant that it couldnt be considered closed anymore so the classifications of the competitions would change from then on. But of course here we are 65 years on and the closed championship/national championship/national cup as we all know has evolved many times over the decades. in 1978 the championship would become what we now know as the Play Offs and at that time the Cup was considered the new competition. Basketball historians (if there is such a thing) would realign those competitions in later years. And as most will remember the BBL brake away from the competition in 2003, the history books have the NBL Cup as the coninuation and rightly so but most will probably see more familiarity in the BBL Cup. So here 65 years on it seems silly to have both the 1956 Finals under one competition so it has been rightly corrected on Wiki. I will do so on my tin pot results blog as well just in case it matters lol. I think looking at the Open Championship there were teams containing mainly non-British players (ie the Lithuanians) who in the pre-EU days classed as imports, so I reckon you're right.
The National Cup, as you say, is a complicated. I would count the end-of-season Championship and the Cup as being closer relatives that the play-offs and the Championship because the latter allowed teams from outside the top flight. Having slept with the actual trophy (yes, seriously, it also lived under my bed for a while), it was the same piece of silverware and the NBL teams continue to play for it.
There's no definitive answers, though. I think the BBL Cup switch to a group based competition has weakened its claim to be a successor to the third version of the National Cup (the 1978-2003 version).
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 25, 2021 20:21:50 GMT
Wow Hersey, 'this day in Leopards History' section. Thats quite a commitment you have bestowed on yourself.
So regards the Watford Royals debate. My understanding is...
The Watford Royals date back a long time at least 1960, possibly further back and as you can see they pop up in the Founders Cup Finals and they appear in the National Junior Cup Finals in the formative decades as well. But they dont join the NBL until 1982. Hemel Hempstead starts there NBL play in 1977, whether they in fact date further back I dont know. Ive found no evidence that they do date back further and ive seen Mens, Womens and Junior Cup results in the mid 70s and theres no other Hemel Hempstead prior to 77. But I might be wrong. Then in 1984 they merge and become the Hemel and Watford Royals, both Pawprint and Statsman have considered the merged club as a continuation of the Hemel Hempstead club and rightly so considering the name was a mixture of the two, they inherited Hemels league position and Hemel had the more colourful NBL history to give up at that point. The merged club takes off and reattaches the 'and Watford' part of there name a few times over the next decade or so and then in 97-98 become the Watford Royals before becoming the MK Lions the year after. So Hemel Hempstead (77-84) and Watford Royals (50s/60s-84) are very much related as they merged together, and even possibly rivals at one point as the Pawprint magazines claim that Hemel Hempstead blocked Watford Royals entry to the league in 81 which is a year before they were successful in joining.
As for the Watford Rebels of 89 onwards. I have no idea if there is any relation between them and the Hemel and Watford Royals. No idea at all. Pawprint and Statsman have the Watford Rebels line starting in 89 and havent attached it to the old Watford Royals of 82-84 at all. One thing I would say is that the name 'Rebels' is a good name for a breakaway club so possibly maybe they were formed out of lapsed members of the Hemel and Watford Royals but that is just purely theory.
Just going back to the 1956 Cup Final debecle i mentioned above, some more research has taken place (including examining meeting minutes from England Basketball from the 50's) and I just wanted to share this and correct some errors above.
So the reason as to why there was supposedly no National Cup Final in 1956 yet 2 Founders Cup Finals that year seems to be as follows...
The National Championship starts in 35/36 and then runs as the premier and (presumably) only National Senior event run by England Basketball at that time (or the ABBA at this point). The winners receive the Famous George Williams Trophy which is still handed out today. Then in 1950 the time old World Wide Basketball debate comes up in conversation in the meeting that year. Someone says theres too many Americans (/Foreign) players in our competition, we need to do something quick, just think about our National Team, blah, blah, blah. In comes the idea of having two separate competitions, an Open Competition (currently considered the Founders Cup), in which Foreigners can play, and a Closed one (currently considered the National Cup) in which teams (I think) had to be entirely British. The All British Clubs could enter both if they like and some occasions won both. The George Williams Trophy was given to the Closed winner as that was seen more as the pure English Competition. A problem however would occur in which upstart/inexperienced British Clubs who would enter would sometimes not understand the difference between the two competitions and some times enter the Open competition by mistake and be resoundly thrashed by there American Opponents and be put off bothering in future. So in 1955 Basketball England decided the Open and Closed approach wasnt working and would trial a new approach for the 55/56 season. They would have a National Championship (for elite clubs) and an Intermediate Clubs for the budding upstarts running underneath the National one. Because this is a trial, the George Williams Trophy is shelved for the year. Oxford University wins the National Championship and Derby Tech wins the Intermediate Championship. in 1956 Basketball England consider the Trial a success and makes the change permanent, they bring back out the George Williams Trophy from the shelf and give that to the National Championship winner for many decades to come. The National Championship goes on to be considered a continuation of the Closed Championship presumably because of the link to the George Williams trophy and how its seen as an English competition, even in future decades as there would be restrictions on foreign players etc. The new Intermediate Cup was considered a continuation of the Open Championship as it did not restrict foreign involvement, It would go on to become the Founders Cup and be a competition that sits underneath the NBL and even then still didnt restrict foreign involvement unlike the NBL which did.
However what they have done with the 55/56 records is where it seems to get very confusing. Presumably because this was a Trial season and that the George Williams Trophy was not awarded to the winners of the National Championship. They seem to have taken the decision to lump both the Finals under the Open/Intermediate Championship Finals lists. This seems very unfair considering this Trial was a success and the competition would continue in the format used in the Trial season. Its also possible that because the George Williams Trophy wasnt given to the winners Oxford University, that again they chose to display the Final history this way. Again another silly choice considering that they have swapped the Trophy's around from time to time so again not good enough in my opinion. The current position of having no National Cup Final in 1956 doesnt sit comfortable with me as there definitely was one, it was won by Oxford University and its good this has been amended on Wiki. Hopefully EB do the same with there records.
My informant is also of the opinion that its very misleading having the Open winners under the Founders Cup history and the Closed winners under the National Cup history as the Open Championship with Foreign involvement was likely played to a better standard than the closed Championship yet todays National Cup is of a better standard than the Founders Cup.
All very confusing.
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 25, 2021 21:08:38 GMT
.I'm up to March 3, all waiting to go online. I'll certainly get March & April done, how much of August-mid January depends when Boris re-opens the schools. There's plenty of time, though I could do with reports between 2004-2009 if you fancy another challenge.
Interesting stuff on Hemel/Watford, and the National Cup. Only English basketball could make such a pig's ear that they stage one competition twice and don't stage the other. I'd agree about giving it to Oxford. As for BE's records, are they even online any more? It's the kind of thing that was lost when they blew £10000s on that abortion of a website and they seem to have little interest in the game's history.
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jan 25, 2021 21:16:34 GMT
The final history is no longer online your right and that is a shame. There is still a lot to recover from the past but I remain confident that the National Basketball Archive and various interested figures will pull it all back together eventually.
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 26, 2021 10:07:56 GMT
I'm sure you/they will. But considering just how much money was wasted on a website BE now admit isn't any good, they could have transferred text files from the old one. It might have taken as long as hour judging by the lack of professionalism in building the thing. I'm sure many people thing "who cares?" by our NGB should be ensuring that the history of our game is recorded properly. Honours lists, league tables and details of cup competitions should be the bare minimum but there seems little interest.
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History
Jan 26, 2021 10:36:12 GMT
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Post by drivethebody on Jan 26, 2021 10:36:12 GMT
I'm sure you/they will. But considering just how much money was wasted on a website BE now admit isn't any good, they could have transferred text files from the old one. It might have taken as long as hour judging by the lack of professionalism in building the thing. I'm sure many people thing "who cares?" by our NGB should be ensuring that the history of our game is recorded properly. Honours lists, league tables and details of cup competitions should be the bare minimum but there seems little interest. “Many people *think “ “*but our NGB “ Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine
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History
Jan 26, 2021 10:43:40 GMT
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jan 26, 2021 10:43:40 GMT
I'm sure you/they will. But considering just how much money was wasted on a website BE now admit isn't any good, they could have transferred text files from the old one. It might have taken as long as hour judging by the lack of professionalism in building the thing. I'm sure many people thing "who cares?" by our NGB should be ensuring that the history of our game is recorded properly. Honours lists, league tables and details of cup competitions should be the bare minimum but there seems little interest. “Many people *think “ “*but our NGB “ Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine Alas, it seems you draw the line at punctuation.
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History
Jan 26, 2021 11:00:24 GMT
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Post by drivethebody on Jan 26, 2021 11:00:24 GMT
“Many people *think “ “*but our NGB “ Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine Alas, it seems you draw the line at punctuation. Ha ha quite! But then again I’m a mere roofer and don’t purport to be a journo
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Post by connors on Jan 26, 2021 12:54:43 GMT
No but you are looking to derail this very interesting thread by picking a fight with Hersey......maybe just ignore the typos next time? Just a thought.
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History
Jan 26, 2021 13:00:21 GMT
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 26, 2021 13:00:21 GMT
I'm sure you/they will. But considering just how much money was wasted on a website BE now admit isn't any good, they could have transferred text files from the old one. It might have taken as long as hour judging by the lack of professionalism in building the thing. I'm sure many people thing "who cares?" by our NGB should be ensuring that the history of our game is recorded properly. Honours lists, league tables and details of cup competitions should be the bare minimum but there seems little interest. “Many people *think “ “*but our NGB “ Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine You need to get a life, bro. A real one. not a pretend one on the internet where you pretend to know players and pretend they've got covid and pretend to be offended about a bit of dope effecting your pretend family. Because if all you've got to worry about is fat fingers 8n a thread you've played no part in - which is good becauae you bring nothing to Bev - you really only have a pretebd life. Don't fall off your pretend roof now, dude. It's be a waste of a pretend life.
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History
Jan 26, 2021 13:03:28 GMT
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Post by drivethebody on Jan 26, 2021 13:03:28 GMT
“Many people *think “ “*but our NGB “ Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine You need to get a life, bro. A real one. not a pretend one on the internet where you pretend to know players and pretend they've got covid and pretend to be offended about a bit of dope effecting your pretend family. Because if all you've got to worry about is fat fingers 8n a thread you've played no part in - which is good becauae you bring nothing to Bev - you really only have a pretebd life. Don't fall off your pretend roof now, dude. It's be a waste of a pretend life. Here we go again! There’s only one person pretending to be something on here ‘bro’
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History
Jan 26, 2021 13:04:16 GMT
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Post by drivethebody on Jan 26, 2021 13:04:16 GMT
No but you are looking to derail this very interesting thread by picking a fight with Hersey......maybe just ignore the typos next time? Just a thought. Was a bit of banter not picking a fight but you’re right I’d best ignore
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Post by hersey427 on Jan 26, 2021 13:07:30 GMT
In what way is it banter? You're as funny as a turd that won't flush. And you're ruining a decent thread.
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Post by allstring on Jan 26, 2021 14:57:07 GMT
Wow Allstring, how did you find all of that out. Nothing very special to be honest. Pawprint is a major source. The rest was scanning the Internet. Part of that is knowing what to search for. Sometimes I hit something that I knew about previously and use that as a backdoor to search for what I really want. So just a subset of what you are doing in depth on the Internet plus people you've contacted, old records you've seen etc). In other words I can't offer you much more than you are identifying already. Your doing a great (and incredibly interesting) job and I always click on your links even if I don't always comment. Best feedback I can give is that I do click each time, which I wouldn't if I didn't enjoy what I read. Should add that the info you gleaned about 1956 was a fabulous read. I'd started looking down a path of dates getting out by a year (there is some evidence of that happening when comparing different sources of records) but it would have been a stretch explaining 1956 from that.
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Post by Solly on Jan 27, 2021 16:49:54 GMT
hersey427 - re your latest posting on your blog, talking to yourself i.e.
"If you're bored, I've added some new stuff to the Leopards' history site."
A very interesting read, and tickled me in several places.
The nostalgia is of most interest to me, but who is "Pap Demba Casse" ? If this guy was potentially good enough to warrant potentially decent money being wedged out in order to potentially avoid relegation, how come a google search brings up nothing about him (though plenty about a soccer player with a similar name)?
I guess as you are often slack in your grammar maybe you mis-spelt his name?
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