History

Hi

I have some NBL league tables that include Wirral Hornets on the following PDF you may like to have a look at...

NBL Mens Division 4 2007-2008 to 2010-2011.pdf (534.06 KB)

From what I can see. Wirral's NBL adventures start in 07/08 and last 4 seasons until 10/11.

I tried finding some 2004 Founders Cup info but found nothing. I can see Wirral made it to the Final that year but came up short. I found some 04/05 results though, and these include Wirral...

web.archive.org/web/20050411105505/http://www.pawprint75.co.uk/Matches/Results/Cups/founders_cup.htm

Hope this helps

Columbans 87 Wirral Hornets 73 in Peterborough.

Does that sound feasible?

From what I can work out Columbans were St.Albans based and one of the most successful teams in the Founders Cup, with the win against Wirral being their third (in five years including a loss in the final).  So looks like you came up against a tough opponent.

I believe the team would have been from (or closely related to) St.Columbus College in St.Albans.  An independent college from which I immediately recognise some of their alumni; Mick Luckhurst (for those of you who followed NFL on Channel 4 from its start in November 1982, where he was first a Kicker at Atlanta and then a presenter), Peter Townsend (Ryder Cup Golfer, although I only knew of him later in is career) and briefly Sacha Baron Cohen.  I'd suggest it's highly likely a recent leaver, footballer teenager Noni Madueke currently at PSV will represent the England full team at some point in the not too distant future.  

The Old Columbans hold an Annual Basketball tournament and it looks highly likely some of those players featured in 2004.  You may want to get in contact with them and see what informatin they have from that final.

As an aside I think Bracknell was the "Mecca" in terms of hosting one-off Founders Cup Finals.  Ok I'm over hyping but it does appear that Bracknell was the most used venue ( 4 times).

We were discussing the Hemel/Watford Royals/Rebels "naming muddle" on another thread and it looks like Watford Royals were a team way back in 1976.  And a Watford Royals U-18 team winning th National Cup way back in 1963 and also 1964 both at the Albert Hall.  

These are the Wirral players I could find over an eleven year period as juniors, through the Founder Cup Final, and the four years in the League.

Although not the most successful season, 08-09 looks like a good team with the main scoring coming from Chris Whitehead, Matt Barden and Rhys Platten and the main rebounding from Tom Wilkinson and Karl Siteine.

I’m sure some players played more of the seasons than I’ve listed, but I have no definitive evidence and it’s possible one or two didn’t play in seasons they had initially agreed to. Hopefully some names you remember and with whom you are still in touch with.  Chris and Sean being Anthony’s sons I believe.

Chris Whitehead 5’11” Guard 00-01 (Juniors) 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09, 9-10, 10-11
Sean Whitehead 00-01 (Juniors), 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09
James Rood 6’1” Forward 00-01 (Juniors), 07-08
Phil Price 00-01 (Juniors)

Steve Allen 6’5” Centre 04-05, 05-06, 07-08, 08-09
Colin Rivett 04-05

Tom Wilkinson Big Man 05-06, 08-09
Ciaran Green 6’4” Guard 05-06, 07-08, 08-09
Terry Evans 5’11” Guard 05-06, 07.08, 08-09
Dominic Green 6’4” Forward 05-06, 07-08
Martin Klabou 6’5” Forward 05-06, 07-08
Matthew Higgins 05-06
Lee Irving 05-06

Rhys Platten 6’0” Guard 07-08, 08-09
Christian Single 6’3” Forward 07-08, 08-09
Lee Irvin 6’0” Guard 07-08
Eric Wilding 6’5” Centre 07-08

Matt Barden 6’3” Guard 08-09, 10-11
Karl Siteine 08-09
Stephen Welsh 08-09

? Parker 09-10

By the way a fantastic article about the Oxford University Basketball team has been put on to wiki with a very cool alumni section at the bottom.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University_Men%27s_Basketball

Wow Hersey, 'this day in Leopards History' section. Thats quite a commitment you have bestowed on yourself.

So regards the Watford Royals debate. My understanding is...

The Watford Royals date back a long time at least 1960, possibly further back and as you can see they pop up in the Founders Cup Finals and they appear in the National Junior Cup Finals in the formative decades as well. But they dont join the NBL until 1982. Hemel Hempstead starts there NBL play in 1977, whether they in fact date further back I dont know. Ive found no evidence that they do date back further and ive seen Mens, Womens and Junior Cup results in the mid 70s and theres no other Hemel Hempstead prior to 77. But I might be wrong. Then in 1984 they merge and become the Hemel and Watford Royals, both Pawprint and Statsman have considered the merged club as a continuation of the Hemel Hempstead club and rightly so considering the name was a mixture of the two, they inherited Hemels league position and Hemel had the more colourful NBL history to give up at that point. The merged club takes off and reattaches the 'and Watford' part of there name a few times over the next decade or so and then in 97-98 become the Watford Royals before becoming the MK Lions the year after. So Hemel Hempstead (77-84) and Watford Royals (50s/60s-84) are very much related as they merged together, and even possibly rivals at one point as the Pawprint magazines claim that Hemel Hempstead blocked Watford Royals entry to the league in 81 which is a year before they were successful in joining.

As for the Watford Rebels of 89 onwards. I have no idea if there is any relation between them and the Hemel and Watford Royals. No idea at all. Pawprint and Statsman have the Watford Rebels line starting in 89 and havent attached it to the old Watford Royals of 82-84 at all. One thing I would say is that the name 'Rebels' is a good name for a breakaway club so possibly maybe they were formed out of lapsed members of the Hemel and Watford Royals but that is just purely theory.

Just going back to the 1956 Cup Final debecle i mentioned above, some more research has taken place (including examining meeting minutes from England Basketball from the 50's) and I just wanted to share this and correct some errors above.

So the reason as to why there was supposedly no National Cup Final in 1956 yet 2 Founders Cup Finals that year seems to be as follows...

The National Championship starts in 35/36 and then runs as the premier and (presumably) only National Senior event run by England Basketball at that time (or the ABBA at this point). The winners receive the Famous George Williams Trophy which is still handed out today. Then in 1950 the time old World Wide Basketball debate comes up in conversation in the meeting that year. Someone says theres too many Americans (/Foreign) players in our competition, we need to do something quick, just think about our National Team, blah, blah, blah. In comes the idea of having two separate competitions, an Open Competition (currently considered the Founders Cup), in which Foreigners can play, and a Closed one (currently considered the National Cup) in which teams (I think) had to be entirely British. The All British Clubs could enter both if they like and some occasions won both. The George Williams Trophy was given to the Closed winner as that was seen more as the pure English Competition. A problem however would occur in which upstart/inexperienced British Clubs who would enter would sometimes not understand the difference between the two competitions and some times enter the Open competition by mistake and be resoundly thrashed by there American Opponents and be put off bothering in future. So in 1955 Basketball England decided the Open and Closed approach wasnt working and would trial a new approach for the 55/56 season. They would have a National Championship (for elite clubs) and an Intermediate Clubs for the budding upstarts running underneath the National one. Because this is a trial, the George Williams Trophy is shelved for the year. Oxford University wins the National Championship and Derby Tech wins the Intermediate Championship. in 1956 Basketball England consider the Trial a success and makes the change permanent, they bring back out the George Williams Trophy from the shelf and give that to the National Championship winner for many decades to come. The National Championship goes on to be considered a continuation of the Closed Championship presumably because of the link to the George Williams trophy and how its seen as an English competition, even in future decades as there would be restrictions on foreign players etc. The new Intermediate Cup was considered a continuation of the Open Championship as it did not restrict foreign involvement, It would go on to become the Founders Cup and be a competition that sits underneath the NBL and even then still didnt restrict foreign involvement unlike the NBL which did.

However what they have done with the 55/56 records is where it seems to get very confusing. Presumably because this was a Trial season and that the George Williams Trophy was not awarded to the winners of the National Championship. They seem to have taken the decision to lump both the Finals under the Open/Intermediate Championship Finals lists. This seems very unfair considering this Trial was a success and the competition would continue in the format used in the Trial season. Its also possible that because the George Williams Trophy wasnt given to the winners Oxford University, that again they chose to display the Final history this way. Again another silly choice considering that they have swapped the Trophy's around from time to time so again not good enough in my opinion. The current position of having no National Cup Final in 1956 doesnt sit comfortable with me as there definitely was one, it was won by Oxford University and its good this has been amended on Wiki. Hopefully EB do the same with there records.

My informant is also of the opinion that its very misleading having the Open winners under the Founders Cup history and the Closed winners under the National Cup history as the Open Championship with Foreign involvement was likely played to a better standard than the closed Championship yet todays National Cup is of a better standard than the Founders Cup.

All very confusing.

The final history is no longer online your right and that is a shame. There is still a lot to recover from the past but I remain confident that the National Basketball Archive and various interested figures will pull it all back together eventually.

“Many people *think “
“*but our NGB “

Sorry but spelling and grammar is a real bugbear of mine

Ha ha quite!
But then again I’m a mere roofer and don’t purport to be a journo

You need to get a life, bro. A real one. not a pretend one on the internet where you pretend to know players and pretend they've got covid and pretend to be offended about a bit of dope effecting your pretend family. Because if all you've got to worry about is fat fingers 8n a thread you've played no part in - which is good becauae you bring nothing to Bev - you really only have a pretebd life.
Don't fall off your pretend roof now, dude. It's be a waste of a pretend life.

Was a bit of banter not picking a fight but you’re right I’d best ignore

Nothing very special to be honest.  Pawprint is a major source.  The rest was scanning the Internet.  Part of that is knowing what to search for.  Sometimes I hit something that I knew about previously and use that as a backdoor to search for what I really want.  So just a subset of what you are doing in depth on the Internet plus people you've contacted, old records you've seen etc).  In other words I can't offer you much more than you are identifying already.

Your doing a great (and incredibly interesting) job and I always click on your links even if I don't always comment.  Best feedback I can give is that I do click each time, which I wouldn't if I didn't enjoy what I read.

Should add that the info you gleaned about 1956 was a fabulous read. I'd started looking down a path of dates getting out by a year (there is some evidence of that happening when comparing different sources of records) but it would have been a stretch explaining 1956 from that.