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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 13:35:01 GMT
I get where you are coming from Pavilions do say that the bills were not paid despite constant re-assurances they would be Whatever prompted pavilions to lower the fee though and whatever DCMS was paid for venue fees doesn't hide the fact they didn't pay Theres only so far playing devils advocate takes this and it still ends up at the door of the owners not the pavilion You're assuming that absolutely everything the Pavilions have said is true. They have the convenience of knowing that the Turks aren't engaging in a public slanging match. But it wasn't a kind offer, anyway, because the big plan was simply to lump it all onto a massively increased rent for this season. And £8-10k to stage a basketball game at a venue of that size simply isn't the going rate. Once again, however, you've "gone into one" about something you know nothing more about than the rest of us, and have no experience in the field of dealing with sports arenas. 17 posts today alone (I'm sure I'm not the only one who's given up reading), none short and you continue your annoying habit of re-quoting yourself. You're - again - haranguing anyone who doesn't agree with your rather myopic view of what's happened in Plymouth. But nothing anyone says will make any difference. It really was better when you were just (obsessively - because you were always online) reading 'Bev. Pavilions were in the final year of a two year contract It's the final year they agreed to reduce for Raiders Negotiations for the coming season have nothing to do with that contract You are talking total business nonsense once again |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 13:37:55 GMT
I haven't been on here for ages. Cant remember username so had to start a new one. I lay the blame at the door of Raiders owners - all of them. If you're running the club, and you know that Pavilions is THE ONLY place where you can play, you make that one of your biggest, if not biggest and most important relationship. You do everything to keep them happy. You pay their bills, you make sure that they're happy and don't have any grumbles with the club. To allow this relationship to go sour, just seems pretty foolish, especially when, if as it seems, Raiders haven't paid all or some of the bills from last season. I'm not sure I believe Pavilions when they say Raiders haven't entered into any form of negotiations, I'm sure they must have asked how much the Pavilions were going to charge next season, and upon getting the answer, tried to sort something out. But if the unpaid bills are still there, then the Pavilions are fully within their rights to charge Raiders what they want. This is essentially a private business who want to hire the facilities of another private business. Why in the world, just because it's a basketball club, should the Pavilions bend over backwards and allow the club to treat them like dirt? Why should the Raiders expect the Pavilions to charge them a fee that works for Raiders but doesn't work for the Pavilions? If my business wanted to rent a new office, but the landlord wanted to charge me £1000 a month and I could only afford £500 a month, then why should I expect him to take a £500 reduction on the income he would get just so I could use it. That's not how things work. The Pavilions doesn't have a lot of full time staff. A lot of them are paid to work only when events are on. So for the Pavilions, they don't mind not having basketball there as it means another day when they don't have to pay all the staff, the power, the heating etc. I remember reading years ago, the Pavilions saying they were making a loss on games because of the staff costs etc. Costs in the real world have gone up. For everything. So the costs to Raiders of renting the Pavilions should go up. It's up to the Pavilions to decide what they charge. And do you not think the Pavilions stand to make a lot more money from shows there on a Friday night when they can fit 3,000 or 4,000 people into the arena to watch a concert or comedian etc, than they could from charging the Raiders around £2500 per game, and then having to pay all the costs of hiring the staff, the power etc. Pavilions also provide all the ticketing for games if I'm right? So that's something else that the Raiders get for free. I'm sure the Pavilions would charge outside acts for this kind of ticketing facility. Again, that's more money that the Pavilions would make instead of having Raiders play games there. The club were happy to pay some pretty extortionate wages to players throughout the season. If they were doing that and not paying key suppliers like the Pavilions, then more fool them. The owners don't deserve to own a club. Mollard had a very public spat with the Turkish owner. This after him welcoming Mr Yucel in with open arms (“This is an amazing point in the club’s history,” he said in the press release of the take over). He was one of the two owners who sold half of the club to the Turks. Who knows what went on between Mollard and Yucel. But Mollard is still listed in the active directors on Companies House. So he has to take just as much blame as everyone else. I feel bad for the fans, sponsors and paid employees. They're the ones that have been sold down the river. But players and coaches will find other jobs. The Raiders say they will be back in a year. No they won't. In a year, they'll be in the same place as they are now. You can't source a plot of land, get planning permission, get the funding together, build an arena, and then fit it out in a year. In a year's time, it will be either pay the Pavilions a lot of money every game, or don't play. If you're the Pavilions, and Raiders are throwing all that mud at you when they didn't pay the bills in the first place, would you welcome them back? No. I wouldn't either. Spot on |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 13:42:05 GMT
Long post. Apologies if it lacks coherence! Must admit the impact of the DCMS money on clubs isn’t very clear to me. As I understand, that money was to cover the “losses” the clubs would/did incur last year. Whether you believe it’s in the spirit/ethical for Worcester to have withdrawn after accepting that money, they haven’t done anything wrong. As far as I know they haven’t left any debtors, which I doubt is true of many other businesses that have closed down post government funding. From what I understand Leicester and Newcastle are offering free extensions to last years Season Ticket holders. That’s great customer service, but what are the economics? DCMS money wouldn’t have covered those tickets last season as the income was obtained and retained. So for Newcastle I believe your looking circa 75K (or more) in declined income assuming many fans didn't start requesting refunds mid season. Some of that will be retained by secondary income, but primarily over the season rather than upfront. I believe Newcastle were earning around 1K a game from streaming, but that was for last season. Leicester and Newcastle have a different (and very good) model to the rest of the league, but these are substantial amounts that they won’t be receiving, and a big impact on cash flow, as they are upfront payments (or at least a portion if the clubs offer installment payments). I’m not sure how they are able to manage that when other income streams can not be judged with confidence. I remain unconvinced how any business can truly predict future footfall, not so much based on people’s concerns, but more that 18 months is a long time for many just to slot back into their old routines; they have new ones now. Surrey and Rocks aren’t offering Season Tickets this season, although I can’t remember if Surrey offered them last year. Bristol I think are offering Season Tickets but not for “free” as I understand. London are currently in the rich owner model (even Newcastle were many years ago). Two of the big 5 budget wise have gone for differing reasons. Size of the league isn’t a problem per se, ensuring teams remain viable is important. Not sure I’m so critical of EB (and I’m no fan of them) for being responsible to have top echelon teams relative (infrastructure wise) to the lower end of the BBL. The BBL is a closed shop, it’s not EB’s job to make a flow of teams available. Doesn’t mean I don’t agree that they are indeed doing a poor job within their remit. There really needs to be a BBL 2, but we aren’t close to being able to resource such a league. If a team were set-up in Leicester, with their own arena with a proven infrastructure, would the Riders accept them with open arms? Maybe, it could be a wonderful rivalry, but equally they could prevent it based on location (I assume the franchise distance limits still exist?). My point being you could have the best team in British basketball but still have no access to the BBL. I don’t believe it is as black and white as the Pavilions are painting the picture. The model in place has been distorted by government funding. By their own press release they demonstrate close ties with the Raiders. Don’t be fooled by the figures. They are implying they’ve contributed quarter of a million pounds a year to the Raiders running costs. That they’ve offered a 50% discount. A bit like suggesting I go into Tesco’s and because I buy one and get one for free that Tesco’s claim they are contributing to our family food bill. I’d expect a discount on paying upfront (early bird season tickets!). I bet the Pavilions have a high rental figure they never hit for anything. Without it they have no negotiating room; no ability to quote savings in the millions or huge discounts. Presumably the Pavilions have received government support and furlough support for staff. Gets very complex then. Raiders can’t claim DCMS money for a normal (level of) cost that they don’t incur. Pavilions can’t charge Raiders for something the government has already covered them for. You could argue that the Pavilions ethically shouldn’t have reduced their costs last season. But here you get into the complexities of the government strategy. On one hand trying to ensure a “Pavilions” is an ongoing viable business and on the other hand ensuring a “BBL” can have a relatively normal season. As has been suggested with Worcester, they (Worcester) could have considered continuing at a vastly reduced budget this coming season. Whilst it was good to see the BBL having such a successful season, it didn’t sit comfortably with me that they were able to operate teams at such a high level of quality. Bear in mind that a lot of the expense (that Worcester are being suggested to cut) has gone on imports and Brits where the global market opportunities have been impacted. Remember the majority of players weren’t contracted to the clubs and in many cases weren’t even UK based when signed. Interestingly Worcester appeared one of the few clubs last season that appeared to be operating as if there was a global pandemic happening. Back to the Raiders. Nobody would agree that a black and white non payment was acceptable. But is it really that black and white. I suspect some middle ground where there is fault and truth on both sides; although I’d accept it’s not likely to be middle, but more slanted in one direction. I’d guess the Raiders haven’t fully met their commitments (how much was agreed on good faith rather than officially) and the Pavilions look to have tried to leverage increased income from rich owners. Wolves must have honoured any debts or liabilities ( or intend to honour them) as they are continuing Just not with a BBL club Do Raiders have anything else to continue with? Anyone think they will pay what they owe to businesses in Plymouth before they go? You can walk away from BBL You can't walk away from your debts so easily |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 13:45:41 GMT
Wolves must have honoured any debts or liabilities as they are continuing Just not with a BBL club Do Raiders have anything else to continue with? Anyone think they will pay what they owe to businesses in Plymouth before they go? You can walk away from BBL You can't walk away from your debts so easily The problem is, you can walk away from your debts quite easily. A lot of businesses will go bankrupt and then the owners magically start up another new business. It's just not so easy if you're a prominent local businessman. Some of you on here have alleged that the Turkish owner has no other interests in the City. He does. He owns a college that is based in the City and is tied I believe to both Universities. It won't look good on them if they leave other bills unpaid. It won't look good on Mr Mackenzie if bills are left unpaid. It won't look good on Mr Mollard either. Have they paid their coach transport to away games? Their player accommodation? Player cars? |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 13:49:36 GMT
Wolves must have honoured any debts or liabilities as they are continuing Just not with a BBL club Do Raiders have anything else to continue with? Anyone think they will pay what they owe to businesses in Plymouth before they go? You can walk away from BBL You can't walk away from your debts so easily The problem is, you can walk away from your debts quite easily. A lot of businesses will go bankrupt and then the owners magically start up another new business. It's just not so easy if you're a prominent local businessman. Some of you on here have alleged that the Turkish owner has no other interests in the City. He does. He owns a college that is based in the City and is tied I believe to both Universities. It won't look good on them if they leave other bills unpaid. It won't look good on Mr Mackenzie if bills are left unpaid. It won't look good on Mr Mollard either. Have they paid their coach transport to away games? Their player accommodation? Player cars? Well they can go into liquidation etc That's different from saying they want to withdraw from BBL for a year Liquidate or go into admin in bigger sports and you are coming back ten leagues below as a new club entirely Will Raiders have outstanding season tickets to refund ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 13:55:06 GMT
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 14:50:07 GMT
Richard Mollard has been away from the club for a while. Still an owner. Still have responsibilities. Couldn't agree more. Don't want the responsibilities, don't like your fellow directors? Resign. |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 14:54:42 GMT
If local businesses are owed money they can at least knock on the doors of the plymouth directors for payment. That’s if like everyone is saying Raiders aren’t paying bills. I don't think anyone is saying that they aren't paying any of their bills, just raising questions that if they aren't paying the bills of their biggest and most important partner, are they likely to be paying the rest of their bills too? I know they don't need to, and most other businesses wouldn't volunteer that kind of information too.. I guess wishful speaking, it would be nice if Raiders were more transparent, then we would know things for sure, rather than raising these kinds of questions or people making allegations. |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:08:45 GMT
Mollard had a very public spat with the Turkish owner? So has power at the top caused all of this? Poor little rich kids ruining for the greater good? Just a thought? Richard as we all know is a passionate bloke and was known for throwing his toys out of the pram if he didn’t get something he wanted. Hence so many people not wanting to deal with him Passionate about the game but perhaps not a business savvy bloke? Absolute egos Ross and him! Look we own a club but where are they now? Probably blaming everything on everyone else. Seems to be the trend these days. Couldn't have put it better myself. Though the Turkish guy supposedly had slightly more than the 50% of ownership - so no matter what the two local investors do, if Mr Yucel makes a decision no one else gets a say. Pretty dumb to give up control of the club like that when they got him to invest. |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:13:58 GMT
It looks like Ashley Hamilton - according to his agent - (and which other players does this apply to) is looking for a settlement agreement with the club as he had a contract for this season. This could end up pretty expensive for the club if other players are in the same boat.
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:21:08 GMT
Exactly! Richard and Ross = successful business guys apparently, they have had solicitors and go over everything with a fine tooth comb? They knew what they were getting in too. I’ll be sorely disappointed if they don’t take their share of responsibility. After all they invited the investment, why? Because the club was in dire straits? Were they not telling us the full truth before the investors came on board? I don’t know just a thought . But if there is bickering at the top is it because now they (Richard and Ross) have to be accountable and work differently? Someone said on here they (Turkish) have links to the city. Their own Uni and links with our two unis. They run a successful club in Turkey that could have been well good for our academy kids and uni kids transfers between the two countries. Imagine that? They must have wanted to invest more into our city and somethings gone wrong By the sounds of it bitchin at the top! 🤦 It's all very sad. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 15:22:27 GMT
Mollard had a very public spat with the Turkish owner? So has power at the top caused all of this? Poor little rich kids ruining for the greater good? Just a thought? Richard as we all know is a passionate bloke and was known for throwing his toys out of the pram if he didn’t get something he wanted. Hence so many people not wanting to deal with him Passionate about the game but perhaps not a business savvy bloke? Absolute egos Ross and him! Look we own a club but where are they now? Probably blaming everything on everyone else. Seems to be the trend these days. Couldn't have put it better myself. Though the Turkish guy supposedly had slightly more than the 50% of ownership - so no matter what the two local investors do, if Mr Yucel makes a decision no one else gets a say. Pretty dumb to give up control of the club like that when they got him to invest. MLA College Sports Limited own 60 per cent of Raiders They have 2 directors One is the same Turkish lady who recently resigned from Raiders -Doctor Basak Akdemir The other is Paul James The remaining 40 per cent of shares in Raiders are owned by Richard and Ross 20 per cent each Paul James is also a director of Raiders Don't know who owns the shares of MLA Sports College They only started trading fairly recently and haven't filed anything I can see |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:38:52 GMT
Couldn't have put it better myself. Though the Turkish guy supposedly had slightly more than the 50% of ownership - so no matter what the two local investors do, if Mr Yucel makes a decision no one else gets a say. Pretty dumb to give up control of the club like that when they got him to invest. MLA College Sports Limited own 60 per cent of Raiders They have 2 directors One is the same Turkish lady who recently resigned from Raiders -Doctor Basak Akdemir The other is Paul James The remaining 40 per cent of shares in Raiders are owned by Richard and Ross 20 per cent each Paul James is also a director of Raiders Don't know who owns the shares of MLA Sports College They only started trading fairly recently and haven't filed anything I can see Good work!!! |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 15:39:55 GMT
MLA College Sports Limited own 60 per cent of Raiders They have 2 directors One is the same Turkish lady who recently resigned from Raiders -Doctor Basak Akdemir The other is Paul James The remaining 40 per cent of shares in Raiders are owned by Richard and Ross 20 per cent each Paul James is also a director of Raiders Don't know who owns the shares of MLA Sports College They only started trading fairly recently and haven't filed anything I can see Good work!!! Raiders recently filed accounts upto the end of May 2020 showing they were £173k in debt There was a note to the accounts to say MLA College Sports were going to support that debt if needed to allow the business to be considered a going concern Bear in mind they inherited that debt and 13 months have passed since then |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:43:03 GMT
Raiders recently filed accounts upto the end of May 2021 showing they were £173k in debt There was a note to the accounts to say MLA College Sports were going to support that debt if needed to allow the business to be a going concern Even better work! £173k in debt? Seems a hell of a lot of debt to run themselves into. Pretty irresponsible. So I wonder is this debt going to be paid by MLA College Sports or are they going to bugger off now? The phrase "cut your cloth accordingly" springs to mind. The club were spending an astronomical amount of money on player salaries. And now potentially settlement agreements for the players on multi year contracts too..! yikes. |
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Post by billybob on Jul 9, 2021 15:50:19 GMT
Even better work! £173k in debt? Seems a hell of a lot of debt to run themselves into. Pretty irresponsible. So I wonder is this debt going to be paid by MLA College Sports or are they going to bugger off now? The phrase "cut your cloth accordingly" springs to mind. The club were spending an astronomical amount of money on player salaries. And now potentially settlement agreements for the players on multi year contracts too..! yikes. Wow detective work! I’m not a business person am I right in reading that MLA college will cover the debt? I think £170k of debt isn’t massive in the grand scheme of a business. That’s like 8 staff on £20k a year how many staff in the office? Do owners/directors get paid? We all have debt of that with mortgages 😂 We may all have a debt of that in a mortgage, but that's spread over 20+ years. They made a loss of £173,000 in 1 year. Over 20 years, that's... a lot more! |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 16:00:20 GMT
Wow detective work! I’m not a business person am I right in reading that MLA college will cover the debt? I think £170k of debt isn’t massive in the grand scheme of a business. That’s like 8 staff on £20k a year how many staff in the office? Do owners/directors get paid? We all have debt of that with mortgages 😂 We may all have a debt of that in a mortgage, but that's spread over 20+ years. They made a loss of £173,000 in 1 year. Over 20 years, that's... a lot more! That's not an annual loss it's a debt they took on when they got involved in the club The money they owed back then included 200k of directors loans in to the business Those will be cumulated losses funded from previous years etc |
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Post by blueskies99 on Jul 9, 2021 16:01:30 GMT
I'd just like to add that the Paul James who is a director of MLA isn't the Paul James who coached the Raiders.....
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 9, 2021 16:04:45 GMT
I'd just like to add that the Paul James who is a director of MLA isn't the Paul James who coached the Raiders.....
Thanks It's the same Paul James who is a director at Raiders (not the coach) |
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Post by basketballjoe3 on Jul 9, 2021 16:45:30 GMT
That's not an annual loss it's a debt they took on when they got involved in the club The money they owed back then included 200k of directors loans in to the business Those will be cumulated losses funded from previous years etc So the £173k is the debt Ross and Richard were in/had run up when the investors came on board? Is that right? The way I read them is that at end of May 2019, retained losses were £258,735 - these will have been incurred since Plymouth Raiders 1983 Ltd was incorporated on 23 May 2017. Between May 2019 and May 2020, called up share capital moved from £100 to £250 and the share premium account moved from £nil to £239,850. This means that the capital injection during the year was £240,000. The other side of this entry would be cash, meaning it did not affect the P&L. The retained losses grew to £413,047 meaning a loss for the year of £173,197. Source: Filed accounts publicly available on Companies House |
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Post by Raidersfan on Jul 9, 2021 18:58:31 GMT
£400,000 in debt, yet still last year put together a championship team that must have cost the second or third most in the league. Ludicrous, I would rather have watched us lose 30 games a year with a terrible squad but still have a raiders team next year!!!
Think it is terrible if it’s true they owe local businesses money on the back of retaining government hand outs, these business now run the risks of cash flow problems.
Think the owners should be made accountable, but as always it’s the fans and staff that suffer.
What’s the bet there will be a Birmingham Raiders occupying the new stadium built there.
I literally feel like I’ve been dumped from a relation, sad and angry at the drop of a hat
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Post by basketballjoe3 on Jul 9, 2021 21:03:32 GMT
£400,000 in debt, yet still last year put together a championship team that must have cost the second or third most in the league. Ludicrous, I would rather have watched us lose 30 games a year with a terrible squad but still have a raiders team next year!!! Think it is terrible if it’s true they owe local businesses money on the back of retaining government hand outs, these business now run the risks of cash flow problems. Think the owners should be made accountable, but as always it’s the fans and staff that suffer. What’s the bet there will be a Birmingham Raiders occupying the new stadium built there. I literally feel like I’ve been dumped from a relation, sad and angry at the drop of a hat It’s not all debt as such, the various going concern notes reference directors will not seek to recover loans which do not bear interest. It’s basically £400k more expense than income and the loans act almost more like a capital injection that requires less effort to recover than a dividend. Had a quick look at the accounts this evening, if I can find time next week, I might try and piece together what’s gone on over the four years. But I share your frustration and watching the signings on social media for Lions and Riders is just heart breaking. |
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Post by clintonh on Jul 10, 2021 8:50:13 GMT
Luckily it’s only a 4 hour 30 mins round trip to our nearest BBL/NBL team, and that’s Bristol which is almost always at full capacity
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 9:19:04 GMT
I wouldn't go there If you paid me
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 9:23:22 GMT
Are the BBL doing anything? How many staff are there at BBL- anyone know? What do you expect them to do? They don't have a team of builders hiding in a back room. |
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