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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 21:06:47 GMT
Nice work. I don't see any point in combining different levels records together, especially as there's been so many different formats. I'd be interested to see a second tier table as it's always been a single, national, division. And it would be nice to Reading above us in another table  Being picky: you've included hemel & watford in lions' record and Guildford Kings with Kingston? |
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on May 16, 2020 8:22:39 GMT
It would be good to see an all time second division table. I tried but I just couldnt put together a consistent approach without it looking ridiculous. If you start to form legal lines of clubs (the MK Dons are Wimbledon approach) then you have things like Bury connecting with Richmond, and Stevenage with Worthing which no one sees it that way. But then if you uncouple such examples which ones do you uncouple and dont. Pawprint had a distance rule but im unsure what was considered a long and short distance. Then you have phoenix clubs connecting to there old versions, the time lines start to merge, teams start to collect results in the same season which is unfair. The web is tangled too much. Any such completed verion would be littered with inconsistencies. I got to about 2002 and then gave up (still dont consider it a waste of time as I learnt quite a lot that i had never realised before). In all honesty some of that first division one is a bit contradictory as well, but no where near as confusing as the second division one was becoming. If i have another go one day and actually get to the end then I will post it on here. Regards Hemel and Kingston, are you sure those ones are up for debate. Both pawprint and statsman (another one that tried to do something like this in the past) have it going that direction. Unless your simply just being picky at the name and how i didnt make it clear that their records includes those brands too.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2020 14:11:09 GMT
Yeah, i was asking if they were included because they should be.
I revkon a post 2000 2nd tier league would be fairly uncontroversial , ware/ leopards being the only real argument. The two solents are different clubs
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Post by sm11 on May 23, 2020 22:37:45 GMT
Hello again. Ive made a few updates to the PDFs on page 1 and 2 of this thread. I went searching through the times and guardians online archives (only just occured to me to have a look at old newspapers), and discovered a few results. I have now found all the Mens Top Flight Quarter Final Results from 85 through 87, previously only had the series scores. I also discovered the semi final results from 86 which are missing on wiki.
I also discoverd (not so interestingly) that there were third place games that took place in the final fours of 81 to 84 and 88 (no mention on wiki of these). I couldnt find the 88 one so I decided to just take all third place games out of the PDFs just to make it as accurate as possible. After all the BBL website makes no mention of any 3rd place games ever so why should I.
I had a general tidy around but havent found any more league tables.
This thread now I believe is the only place online (currently and possibly ever) that has all mens Top Flight, QF, SF and Final results. I dont think I have all the Over Time tags on the right hand side, but I have a score for each game at least (and the correct ones until proven otherwise).
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on May 24, 2020 18:03:31 GMT
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Post by sm11 on Jul 18, 2020 20:30:35 GMT
Hello again. I revisited the cumulative league table idea i mentioned previously (a resurrection of the old pawprint one) and have now managed to insert 2nd tier/NBL1 records into it now. It took a long time and not everyone will agree with the team lineages but something is better than nothing and here is attempt number 2. The SM11 NBL-BBL-WBBL Cumulative League Table.ods (21.99 KB) It includes an all time 1st tier/BBL table, an all time 2nd tier/NBL1 table and an all time combined 1st and 2nd tier table with a 2 points per tier 1 win and 1 point for tier 2 win system. Please also note i am still missing two second division tables (81-82 and 82-83) i went ahead with it nonetheless and have put a question mark next to the teams involved in those seasons, so be aware that those teams may be due a few extra points when those tables are finally discovered. Im hoping to add in third tier info and a womens one too but im missing far too much info from those levels to bother to start yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 21:13:35 GMT
Looks great. Excellent stuff. I'll pick it apart tomorrow |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 10:12:55 GMT
I like it. Could you get a higher compliment? Hemel Storm were actually born out of West Herts Warriors II (AKA Watford Storm & Edmonton Storm), they shouldn't include Warriors couple of seasons in D1. The current Leopards are a bit of a conundrum. I consider us to be a continuation of the BBL club (I'd also like to claim the history of London YMCA/Kingston/Guildford Kings (Inc Rangers) there are certainly links - but I know I'm pushing it) but Pete Jacques considered we're a continuation of Ware Rebels V2. He was probably right, but in the (unfinished) history site I've put together I've gone for the 25 seasons of Leopards with a mention of Rebels. |
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Post by sm11 on Jul 19, 2020 19:29:07 GMT
Thanks. Yeah i was not totally sure about the west herts/hemel link. I mean im aware it was a case that the 2nd team eventually became hemel storm, but i just decided that when a 1st team folds then i think the 2nd team can continue from where the 1st team left off. If i uncoupled west herts and hemel i would probably have to uncouple both the Manchester Magic records too. I think ultimately something like this just has to be done by gut feelings really. Like I was saying previously, if you came up with a strict system with a set of rules of how team lineages flow in which ever direction you take then it wont look anything like what it should. The Leopards history is great. The more teams that do things like this the better. Yours has over taken Solents as the most comprehensive, and thats a big compliment as Solents is fantastic as well. Is it just you smashing these articles, or is there a few of you working together.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 9:18:21 GMT
Warriors I tried to re-enter D1 for 2008/9 but were placed in D4 (below their second team!), they promptly withdrew.
I'm sure there's loads of similar anomalies and as you say, you have to make judgment calls.
Aside from a bit of fact checking, I've written the whole history. The scrapbooks given to me by a fan who moved away were invaluable for the BBL era. Cheers for the compliment. It's something I'd always intended to do as I think it's sad that so much UK has been lost. It just took a pandemic to make me get around to it.
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Post by sm11 on Aug 7, 2020 22:10:13 GMT
Hello again, thanks to Dave Owen and a very helpful contact he had at Plymouth Raiders, the following league tables have now been added to the PDFs earlier on in the thread...
Men's Division 2 1994/95
Women's Division 1 1994/95
Women's Division 1 1995/96
Small amendments have been made to the following league tables...
Men's Division 1 1996/97
Men's Division 2 1996/97
Women's Division 1 1996/97
also the bottom half of the Men's Division 2 1995/96 table has been found and is now viewable in the PDF. We are working on obtaining the top half and will edit when we get it.
Ive also started slotting in some NBL play off results from the 96/97 and 97/98 seasons into the PDF's which i have found so far. Those parts are very patchy but hopefully i can complete them some day.
Ive also been working on putting together PDF's for the Women's second tier and some Cup PDF's too but they are very much under construction and i will put them on here when they take shape properly.
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Post by sm11 on Aug 15, 2020 16:28:31 GMT
Dave Owen unearthed and forwarded me the 1993-94 league tables, I have added them into the PDFs accordingly. Not many mens league tables to go now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2020 16:35:10 GMT
Have you thought about sticking them on a wordpress site to make them easily accessible?. Happy to help
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Aug 15, 2020 16:52:19 GMT
Yes i have thought it would be good to make them more accessible some how. Ideally some one would google NBL history or tables or something and it would come up at least some point early on in the search.
Having said that the best place for them right now i feel is here, as they are not finished and iam constantly adding pieces to them. Here i can make an update and add them in really quickly. So i would like to thank Whatsbev once more for allowing me to put the info up on here.
When they are finished (i should be going to Worcester soon and hopefully that should finish the lot) then yes i think they should go somewhere more permanent and googleable and yes your help would be appreciated.
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Post by sm11 on Aug 17, 2020 14:28:03 GMT
Hey Hersey. Do you have the your Leopards results chart for the 2008/09 season. Its not on the website, I couldnt even find it on the facebook. I was hoping to have a look at it for the National Trophy table on it. Ive been putting some National Cup and Trophy stuff together and have come a bit stuck trying to find the info. I used your 2006/07 one for the same purpose so thank you for that.
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Post by sm11 on Aug 17, 2020 15:28:46 GMT
ignore that last one hersey, ive found it under your trophy section, again big thank you. While were at it, dont suppose you have the other group table and other semi final result not involving leopards from the 08/09 national trophy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 15:42:28 GMT
I'm away for a week. I'll look on an old laptop i got working during lockdown and let you know
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Aug 17, 2020 15:56:15 GMT
thanks
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Post by sm11 on Aug 20, 2020 18:52:00 GMT
the 91-92 womens div 1 table showed up on facebook today, i have added them in
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Post by sm11 on Aug 21, 2020 20:55:02 GMT
The 92-93 mens 3rd tier league table has been passed to me by a guy from Liverpool. I have added it in to the PDF's.
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:56:40 GMT
Hello again everyone, im back with more info.
I finally visited the National Basketball Archive on Friday. Had a great time. I was basically given a desk while they wheeled out more and more magazines etc for me to look in. I found loads of stuff. I was given basketball monthly, FIBA magazines, Pawprint, Basketball News. I would definately recommend going if there was anything you were trying to find out, particularly before the turn of the millenium.
I also revisited the times and Guardian online archives recently to squeeze out as many cup/play off results as possible.
I as a result have updated the league tables and play off results PDF's on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. It now contains all Mens tables through 2007, and then just the top 3 tiers there after. All top tier play off results and most play off results of the lower divisions.
I am just 2 tables short of a complete set of womens div 1 tables. Only 81-82 and 84-85 to go. Unfortunately the archive had basketball monthlys march and may editions but not aprils which is where the 81-82 table probably was printed. I also found the 84-85 table but it doesnt add up. It has 133 wins and 131 losses which means a team somewhere in that version of the table was credited with a win when they should have been given a loss throwing the whole table off course. Most womens div 1 play off results are included but a still a few to go.
I have also slotted in womens div 2 PDFs into page 2 which again go as far as 2007. Only 85-86, 87-88, 95-96 and 97-98 missing. A lot of play off results included too.
Now i have all mens 2nd tier tables, i have updated the cumulative league table on page 4. I am also going to work on adding in a womens 1st tier version into the spread sheet.
I have also put together a bunch of cup PDF's that i am now going to up. Ive got most mens national cup results as far back as 1972 amongst other competitions as well. I hope you enjoy.
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:57:35 GMT
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:58:10 GMT
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:58:44 GMT
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:59:19 GMT
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