sm11
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 10:59:52 GMT
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 11:00:21 GMT
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Post by Solly on Oct 4, 2020 11:17:45 GMT
Hello again everyone, im back with more info. I finally visited the National Basketball Archive on Friday. Had a great time. I was basically given a desk while they wheeled out more and more magazines etc for me to look in. I found loads of stuff. I was given basketball monthly, FIBA magazines, Pawprint, Basketball News. I would definately recommend going if there was anything you were trying to find out, particularly before the turn of the millenium. I also revisited the times and Guardian online archives recently to squeeze out as many cup/play off results as possible. I as a result have updated the league tables and play off results PDF's on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. It now contains all Mens tables through 2007, and then just the top 3 tiers there after. All top tier play off results and most play off results of the lower divisions. I am just 2 tables short of a complete set of womens div 1 tables. Only 81-82 and 84-85 to go. Unfortunately the archive had basketball monthlys march and may editions but not aprils which is where the 81-82 table probably was printed. I also found the 84-85 table but it doesnt add up. It has 133 wins and 131 losses which means a team somewhere in that version of the table was credited with a win when they should have been given a loss throwing the whole table off course. Most womens div 1 play off results are included but a still a few to go. I have also slotted in womens div 2 PDFs into page 2 which again go as far as 2007. Only 85-86, 87-88, 95-96 and 97-98 missing. A lot of play off results included too. Now i have all mens 2nd tier tables, i have updated the cumulative league table on page 4. I am also going to work on adding in a womens 1st tier version into the spread sheet. I have also put together a bunch of cup PDF's that i am now going to up. Ive got most mens national cup results as far back as 1972 amongst other competitions as well. I hope you enjoy. Outstanding work sm11 
Fabulous history - as an example, I just had a look at your details of the National Cup 1973. Some wondrous teams.
And "London Latvians" took the trophy! How many Latvians sufficiently interested in basketball and residing in London could there possibly have been in 1973?
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Oct 4, 2020 11:57:12 GMT
Solly, Ive often wondered the same lol. A year later they would become the Islington and London Latvian Embassy All Stars (or as my records tried to do away with sponsor names the 'Islington All Stars'). I know very little of there origins, nothing much is out there about them probably because they packed up in 1979. The 1972-73 cup would include names such as Stretford who would become Manchester Giants (or the first of the 3 Manchester Giants versions), the Southern Pirates who would become the Guildford Pirates and eventually the Thames Valley Tigers, and also Central YMCA Metros who would eventually become Kingston.
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sm11
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Posts: 86
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Post by sm11 on Oct 5, 2020 21:45:05 GMT
Hello again everyone. I have now made a separate website/blog for all the information I have gathered together in order to make it more visable for people with the hope i get help in filling in the gaps. The link is... spm15888.wixsite.com/sm11basketballPlease have a look and see what you think. I probably wont update any of the PDF's on this thread anymore an concentrate on the site. Let me know if you think you have info on helping me fill in the gaps or any suggestions on making it better. |
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Post by guytinternet on Oct 5, 2020 21:58:01 GMT
Great work!
Haven’t been following this thread but will defo spend some time on your site.
Maybe add a win % column to the all time table to make comparisons easier - when you get time obviously. Good stuff.
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Oct 5, 2020 22:04:34 GMT
Good point Guy. For example Leicester place 2nd in the 1st tier table as its ranked on total wins, however they have a losing record all time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 22:08:03 GMT
Looks great.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 6:08:50 GMT
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Dec 30, 2020 22:34:17 GMT
Thank you Hersey. You really can take that table in all kinds of directions. Is there any official links between the Leopards and Kingston/Guildford. Obviously Leopards replaced Guildford, but they seem to have always been seen as seperate. However I see Leopards inherited quite a few of Guildfords players (in a similar manner to what you referred to happening between ware and leopards) and the move really isnt that far. I would say if some one was to link the two in would arguably not be the crime of the century. In case anyone is interested I have tallied up the Women's version as well however I am still two seasons short (81/82 and 84/85) so there are a few results to go. Here is a sneak peak... The SM11 Womens NBL-WBBL Cumulative League ....pdf (280.13 KB) I have put an 'X' next to the teams effected by the missing results which unfortunately a lot of the crucial teams are. I am looking forward to completing it one day |
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Post by allstring on Dec 31, 2020 2:50:06 GMT
If your claiming YMCA, Kingston, Guildford Kings and Glasgow, can I claim Guildford Pirates, Bracknell, Thames Valley on behalf of Guildford/Surrey? That combo would go third (second until recently due to being outperformed by Leicester for years) and drop Leopards to fifth. And if your maths is slightly out, then the London Lions are already passed and that's another drop to sixth! Back in the day (Pawprint) I think Thames Valley actually topped this table and were still leading when they ceased. Fifteen years or so on and it shows how many games Newcastle and Leicester have won in that period. It's great the sm11 is bringing a modern twist (and doing it extremely well) to the history of the game in the UK. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2020 10:24:28 GMT
I wrote the core of the article a few weeks ago which should explain Lions passing my new super club. That or they really shouldn't have let me teach Y7 maths. I'm considering your stealing of Guildford Pirates, Bracknell, Thames Valley, it's justifiable if I'm getting YMCA/Kings etc but in that case I want some kind of recognition for all those national titles "we" won before the National League started. I'm not sure we'll ever come to an amicable solution to this major problem  I have discussed with SM about also sorting the table on percentages, Riders shouldn't really be second with a losing record. I used to enjoy watching Leopards gradually move up Pete's all-time table. |
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Apr 26, 2021 19:57:00 GMT
Hello again everyone.
If anyone is still interested I made it to Worcester for a second time last Friday and added a few more bits to my Blog of British Basketball Tables and Results
spm15888.wixsite.com/sm11basketball
To review what has been added since...
1) A bunch of old League Tables were posted on Facebook a few months ago, i slotted the missing womens tables from the 80s and 90s into the blog meaning all mens 1st and 2nd division and womens 1st division tables are included now. There is only a small question mark remaining against the 1984/85 Womens div 1 table, but otherwise im satisfied all the others are accurate across those 3 mentioned levels
2) Mens National Cup/Championship Results now go back to 1969/70 with no gaps, I tried to go further back but 1968/69 is where the gaps begin to form. I only came back with the Semi Final results and an assorted bunch of First Rounders, no Second Round or Quarters. I kept going further back but it just kept coming out patchy, the earliest results i came back with go back to 1959/60. I might type them up despite how messy it will look but for now 1969/70 is as far as im going to display
3) I Finally found a finished version of the Table of the original National League season in 1960/61. I have slotted that into the more info section. It reveals that the winner was in fact Aspley Old Boys and not Watford Royals which is quoted on Wiki. Not sure what caused that mix up
4) Ive also gone against the establishment a little bit and slotted the Open Champions of 1950 to 1956 along side the National Championship/Closed winners as discussed in the other History thread that we had going on a while back. They shouldnt be forgotten so they can be considered split champions at least
When the BBL league season finishes on Friday (by which time the WBBL will also be complete) I will update the Cumulative League Table either that night or over the weekend.
I think thats me finished with trips to Worcester for now. I might get into it all again in later years but im satisfied now that ive done all I realistically can now.
Hope people find it enjoyable to look through.
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Post by allstring on Apr 26, 2021 21:32:14 GMT
Great work sm11. Much appreciated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2022 5:26:42 GMT
t's been a while since this thread was posted on. But this may be of interest to those of you interested in the history of the game. It also proves Riders aren't the greatest team ever And we really need to persuade SM11 to revive his (her?) history site. |
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jun 10, 2022 8:54:53 GMT
Thanks Hersey. Yeah Ive been working on those docs this week. I resigned up to the British Newspaper Archive as they have uploaded loads of new papers since the last time I was on there 2 years ago. They have uploaded the Solihull Times which gave me a couple of Solihull Chiefs results I needed and the Richmond Informer which had some Richmond Jaguars scores. The docs ive got here now contains every NBL1 play off result ever and only 1 more womens top flight play off result to go.
Ive also now typed up all Patrons Cup and Shield results, and also some Womens Trophy.
And ive had a go at trying to put together some of the Junior champions lists, but this is proving very difficult as im finding quite a lot of evidence of errors in the EBs listings. For example I found an article the other day in the Staffordshire Sentinel from May 1994 reporting about the local Stoke Cadet team losing to the London Towers in the Cadet Play Off final. But if you look on EBs listings for Cadet league winners 1993/94 it has Bolton in second place. Ive found at least 4 other notable issues such as this so far and im sure theres more to come.
Yeah ill see if i can put it back up online soon.
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Post by connors on Jun 10, 2022 10:40:36 GMT
Well done sm11!! It is brilliant to look back at it all. Knowing how basketball coverage is generated usually in local papers (i.e. by the teams sending in stuff) it does not surprise me there woudl be some "innacuracies"! Also the memory can play tricks on us...I recall my Jnr NL team finishing second one year in the Southern Premier (llate 80s)......but I bet we did not :-)
I noticed in the information on the NBL1/BBL combined table it mentioned a team called Brunel Uxbridge. Would that be the team that was around in the early 80s that went by the Ducks moniker?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2022 12:16:47 GMT
I think Brunel Ducks merged with Palace to become BCP before reverting to Crystal Palace
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Post by connors on Jun 10, 2022 12:31:10 GMT
That sounds very much like how I recall being told.
The last time I was at Brunel Uni (circa 12 years ago) their "Daffy Duck" logo still was on the large scoreboard in the original sports hall! I believe the Uni Basketball team there have adopted it as their nickname now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2022 15:11:43 GMT
I think a few teams have played NBL out of Brunel. I'm pretty sure we went there to play Westside in the National Cup on a Sunday lunchtime, staying in Slough after a game at Bristol the night before
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sm11
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Post by sm11 on Jun 10, 2022 19:57:39 GMT
Yes Connors the Brunel Uxbridge side are the Ducks you refer to. I believe someone involved at the club wrote a book about them recently called 'Ducking and Diving'.
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Post by connors on Jun 10, 2022 21:25:28 GMT
I think a few teams have played NBL out of Brunel. I'm pretty sure we went there to play Westside in the National Cup on a Sunday lunchtime, staying in Slough after a game at Bristol the night before West certainly played their as I coached for the junior section for a while. Terrible court full of dead spots, dust from the mountain climbing wall and boiling hot…….but easily my favourite place to play ever. Go figure. |
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