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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 13:17:50 GMT
Yes Bigz, it was to replace lost income. It's that simple. The DCMS aren't going to start to comb through every single sports club it's provided money to, just to check every single bill has been paid. The sums we're talking about are an absolute drop in the ocean and given Raiders' (over)spending, I imagine there's a very good chance that their wage bill took care of all of the funding they received. DCMS simply aren't going to be interested in a minor dispute. The BBL aren't, and never have been, responsible for club debts. Which has been known to be advantageous for Leicester Riders in the past. If the Pavilions give Andy Webb a call, it'll be a very short conversation. Clearly neither of you have even looked at the process. It was winter sport survival funding and was to support clubs who lost spectator income but the lost income was irrelevant to how you claimed Sports clubs could claim for costs you needed to cover to survive. Nothing to do with revenue? You could claim specific operational costs. Made even more interesting by the fact Pavilions subsequently reduced costs to Raiders. Meaning Raiders should actually have had a surplus of money to cover their venue operational costs |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 13:20:20 GMT
Plymouth recruited too talent , increased their wage bill but are going under because of a dispute with the Pavilions? Sorry, don't buy that. There is some big issue behind the scene that is behind this. The Pavilions issue could be sorted out with a conversation with all stakeholders. Something stinks. They werent allowed to claim DCMS money to increase wages. Simple as that. The rules were clear. Ive posted them above. Where has their DCMS money gone ? |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jul 25, 2021 13:24:37 GMT
Yes Bigz, it was to replace lost income. It's that simple. The DCMS aren't going to start to comb through every single sports club it's provided money to, just to check every single bill has been paid. The sums we're talking about are an absolute drop in the ocean and given Raiders' (over)spending, I imagine there's a very good chance that their wage bill took care of all of the funding they received. DCMS simply aren't going to be interested in a minor dispute. The BBL aren't, and never have been, responsible for club debts. Which has been known to be advantageous for Leicester Riders in the past. If the Pavilions give Andy Webb a call, it'll be a very short conversation. Clearly neither of you have even looked at the process. It was winter sport survival funding and was to support clubs who lost spectator income but the lost income was irrelevant to how you claimed Sports clubs could claim for costs you needed to cover to survive. Nothing to do with revenue? I’ve got a life quite frankly, where the bbl got it’s winter survival money from isn’t a hill I’m prepared to die on. I know the money has been spent on wages at a few clubs from people I speak to, if you want to go and cry fraud then by all means go do some digging. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 13:28:04 GMT
And that’s simply the bottom line Hers. The fine tooth comb stuff came with the applications based on attendance figures and the income they’d lose from not having bums on seats. After the clubs have been remunerated, it’s not the business of any government department to decide/preside over how it’s spent once the loss has been accounted for, that Raiders overspent or otherwise is their business and they’re clearly paying the price for it. Yeah I only put our DCMS bid together, gathered all the supporting evidence and successfully obtained the cash to fund 20/21. What I should have done is read some stuff on the internet and become an expert. Think I'll go back to watching USA stink |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jul 25, 2021 13:29:06 GMT
And that’s simply the bottom line Hers. The fine tooth comb stuff came with the applications based on attendance figures and the income they’d lose from not having bums on seats. After the clubs have been remunerated, it’s not the business of any government department to decide/preside over how it’s spent once the loss has been accounted for, that Raiders overspent or otherwise is their business and they’re clearly paying the price for it. Yeah I only put our DCMS bid together, gathered all the supporting evidence and successfully obtained the cash to fund 20/21. What I should have done is read some stuff on the internet and become an expert. Think I'll go back to watching USA stink Some game isnt it to be fair! |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 13:32:29 GMT
Clearly neither of you have even looked at the process. It was winter sport survival funding and was to support clubs who lost spectator income but the lost income was irrelevant to how you claimed Sports clubs could claim for costs you needed to cover to survive. Nothing to do with revenue? I’ve got a life quite frankly, where the bbl got it’s winter survival money from isn’t a hill I’m prepared to die on. I know the money has been spent on wages at a few clubs from people I speak to, if you want to go and cry fraud then by all means go do some digging. It doesn't take a lot of digging. The application process is readily available for all to see online. And it does include being able to claim capped money for employee costs . But clearly justifies me saying that NO suppliers should be owed any money from last season providing the clubs haven't misused the money And BBL Clubs will NEED to be trusted if they want future DCMS support Raiders have NO excuse not to have paid venue costs let alone reduced venue costs ad they will have specifically claimed money to pay those costs no doubt at contracted level rather than reduced level As the poster says above something fishy has gone on at Raiders last season They certainly weren't given a pot of cash by DCMS to just spend on player wages. In fact the opposite. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 13:36:38 GMT
And that’s simply the bottom line Hers. The fine tooth comb stuff came with the applications based on attendance figures and the income they’d lose from not having bums on seats. After the clubs have been remunerated, it’s not the business of any government department to decide/preside over how it’s spent once the loss has been accounted for, that Raiders overspent or otherwise is their business and they’re clearly paying the price for it. Yeah I only put our DCMS bid together, gathered all the supporting evidence and successfully obtained the cash to fund 20/21. What I should have done is read some stuff on the internet and become an expert. Think I'll go back to watching USA stink Well Hersey all that means is you clearly don't understand the difference between what the words income and cost means As there nowhere in the winter sports survival application process where you could claim for revenue or income which you've claimed mistakenly for last hour on here Either that or you've been bull****ting and haven't helped anyone claim anything from DCMS? Which is it ? |
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Post by borthwick on Jul 25, 2021 13:45:01 GMT
IRF you keep referring to future DCMS money. I thought it was a one off, no second helpings.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jul 25, 2021 13:47:51 GMT
It’s not fishy. Paul James overspends as he does everywhere, gets very little to no reward out of it, new owners start to realise this isn’t the TBL and the interest isn’t in it commercially to make money out of the game here or even break even, stop throwing good money after bad then want out.
Throw in a tumultuous relationship with the venue (that they already got at a discounted rate pre pandemic and the venue don’t want to offer it at that anymore) and having no prospect of moving anywhere without basically starting from scratch and it’s a no brainier as to why they’ve gone south. You’ve got to be creative to really have a sustainable model in professional basketball here. Eagles and Riders are the two that have mastered it properly.
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Post by borthwick on Jul 25, 2021 13:53:22 GMT
Very good post Bigz.
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 14:01:59 GMT
The BBL aren't, and never have been, responsible for club debts. The past is irrelevant The BBL canvassed for the Govt DCMS support for the basketball season to go ahead and will be embarrassed and need yo take action against any club(s) who abused the system The winter sports survival document makes it clear that any beneficiaries of the DCMS support will be contractually liable to ensure the money is spent correctly and will be evaluated accordingly Which won't be a problem for clubs who paid their bills Maybe Raiders realised if or when they get evaluated they have a problem with DCMS and wanted to disappear? But BBL will need DCMS to trust the rest of the clubs left at least when the next round of funding comes up |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 14:09:56 GMT
IRF you keep referring to future DCMS money. I thought it was a one off, no second helpings. Theres a new Summer survival fund available for sports clubs to use And I assume BBL and individual BBL clubs will be looking for more support if they can and are allowed to access it Hence why BBL won't want any trust issues or negatives from last season's DCMS support (Something that "l know everything about basketball" hersey didnt even know existed until I educated him about it on here a couple of weeks ago) He's out of touch so dont believe everything he says on here. He's living in the past The new fund involves long term loans for survival which clubs have to make cash flow plans for I assume Riders will be looking for support from this to help with their arena expansion plans that were published a few weeks ago Sports clubs aren't being expected to survive the next few months without financial support but I think the new support is more about loans than grants so clubs will need proper cashflow plans and someone doing the application who knows the difference between income and costs! The timing if when the next season is due to start may determine whether or not Bbl can take advantage of more support. It's not clear in the document. |
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 14:24:48 GMT
It’s not fishy. Paul James overspends as he does everywhere, gets very little to no reward out of it, new owners start to realise this isn’t the TBL and the interest isn’t in it commercially to make money out of the game here or even break even, stop throwing good money after bad then want out. Throw in a tumultuous relationship with the venue (that they already got at a discounted rate pre pandemic and the venue don’t want to offer it at that anymore) and having no prospect of moving anywhere without basically starting from scratch and it’s a no brainier as to why they’ve gone south. You’ve got to be creative to really have a sustainable model in professional basketball here. Eagles and Riders are the two that have mastered it properly. The fishy bit is where the operational cost DCMS money has gone? Paul James won't be the one signing the cheques or paying the bills or the one contractually obliged to spend the DCMS survival money correctly If owners are going to allow him to overspend on wages that should have come from their money and not DCMS money. That money is contractually for public interest spend and should have been ringfenced accordingly by the club We know they had directors resign etc before they announced withdrawal from the league They shouldn't owe any suppliers simple as that Hence why I described it as a honeymoon period for clubs last season Operational costs covered and paid for by the Govt Albeit wages capped That's way better support than most businesses received And we all know that most seasons in BBL it's a battle for many clubs just to meet operational costs on time Last season should have been easy in that respect at least |
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Post by raiders92 on Jul 25, 2021 14:46:52 GMT
Raiders in this form is as good as dead!! I think too much has been said. Both sides are to blame in some capacity and it doesn't look like its repairable. I don't think the raiders brand is dead. There's to much of a fan base and want for a team for there to be no raiders. We simply do not have a venue that could hold 500 fans this side of Exeter.
I honestly see raiders appearing in an alternative form and I'd hope that this will kick the council into looking at an alternative venue that will allow the raiders to return in 5 years to being a big bbl club!!
What does annoy me is when I go on holiday to butlins and within a year they build a massive concert hall in response to having limited capacity due to covid. Would be very easy for raiders and pcc to replicate it as a temporary 5 year venue until you can find something permanent. Or just convert a current unit so many big outlets in the plymourh area have gone over the past 5 years!! With parking in out of town locations that would require semi significant renovation costs (which should be short change to Mr Turkish billionaire)!!
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Post by interestedridersfan on Jul 25, 2021 14:51:16 GMT
Raiders in this form is as good as dead!! I think too much has been said. Both sides are to blame in some capacity and it doesn't look like its repairable. I don't think the raiders brand is dead. There's to much of a fan base and want for a team for there to be no raiders. We simply do not have a venue that could hold 500 fans this side of Exeter. I honestly see raiders appearing in an alternative form and I'd hope that this will kick the council into looking at an alternative venue that will allow the raiders to return in 5 years to being a big bbl club!! What does annoy me is when I go on holiday to butlins and within a year they build a massive concert hall in response to having limited capacity due to covid. Would be very easy for raiders and pcc to replicate it as a temporary 5 year venue until you can find something permanent. Or just convert a current unit so many big outlets in the plymourh area have gone over the past 5 years!! With parking in out of town locations that would require semi significant renovation costs (which should be short change to Mr Turkish billionaire)!! The money clearly wasn't there. |
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Post by raiders92 on Jul 25, 2021 14:54:54 GMT
Raiders in this form is as good as dead!! I think too much has been said. Both sides are to blame in some capacity and it doesn't look like its repairable. I don't think the raiders brand is dead. There's to much of a fan base and want for a team for there to be no raiders. We simply do not have a venue that could hold 500 fans this side of Exeter. I honestly see raiders appearing in an alternative form and I'd hope that this will kick the council into looking at an alternative venue that will allow the raiders to return in 5 years to being a big bbl club!! What does annoy me is when I go on holiday to butlins and within a year they build a massive concert hall in response to having limited capacity due to covid. Would be very easy for raiders and pcc to replicate it as a temporary 5 year venue until you can find something permanent. Or just convert a current unit so many big outlets in the plymourh area have gone over the past 5 years!! With parking in out of town locations that would require semi significant renovation costs (which should be short change to Mr Turkish billionaire)!! The money clearly wasn't there. Your right but the way the raiders is perceived and how good the game nights were the raiders don't need to be a top bbl team to sell out!! A raiders finishing in 8th on a sensible budget would draw nearly as many fans if we were top!! Tbh most people that go raiders go there for the game night not so much the actual sport!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 15:23:07 GMT
How many different sources have you got to prove raiders owe money to anyone? Is it multiple or just 1 post from a venue?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 15:41:39 GMT
The BBL aren't, and never have been, responsible for club debts. The past is irrelevant In common with at least 12,057 of your posts. As Mr Tall eludes to, you've built an entire story out of a claim from the Pavilions that they're owed money. You've added layer after layer to the story without a shred of evidence. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 15:56:30 GMT
Yeah I only put our DCMS bid together, gathered all the supporting evidence and successfully obtained the cash to fund 20/21. What I should have done is read some stuff on the internet and become an expert. Think I'll go back to watching USA stink Well Hersey all that means is you clearly don't understand the difference between what the words income and cost means As there nowhere in the winter sports survival application process where you could claim for revenue or income which you've claimed mistakenly for last hour on here Either that or you've been bull****ting and haven't helped anyone claim anything from DCMS? Which is it ? Ah busted. I'll fess up. I didn't put the evidence together, we didn't get the cash and it didn't fund )the season. In fact I never helped restart Leopards, and we never played in D1 because it doesn't exist (so Drunkster got something right, there was no D1 basketball last season. Amazingly, I don't even exist. In this parallel universe i somehow escaped from you don't spam this board, haranguing anyone who won't agree with you and you don't send threatening messages that you haven't got the balls to back up. Back in the real world, I know what info we were asked for, what we provided (and as the figures were based on Leopards' books, it was obviously going to be me providing the numbers) and what we received. What you may have found online today isn't necessarily what we were asked for. There were times when it appeared that the DCMS were doing things on a wing and a prayer. It was massively stressful and I'm pleased that, regardless of what happens, I won't have to do it again. Sorry if none of that fits your story. |
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Post by whatsbevisdead on Jul 25, 2021 16:46:47 GMT
Yeah I only put our DCMS bid together, gathered all the supporting evidence and successfully obtained the cash to fund 20/21. What I should have done is read some stuff on the internet and become an expert. Think I'll go back to watching USA stink Well Hersey all that means is you clearly don't understand the difference between what the words income and cost means As there nowhere in the winter sports survival application process where you could claim for revenue or income which you've claimed mistakenly for last hour on here Either that or you've been bull****ting and haven't helped anyone claim anything from DCMS? Which is it ? Is there anything you aren’t an expert in? You’re really arguing with someone who runs a team and someone who played in the league? No one is going to laugh at you for not knowing as much as them, but when you keep making post after post arguing and saying THEY are full of BS it just gets embarrassing and sad. Give it a rest for God’s sake. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 17:19:02 GMT
Have you seen whats going on with the Rocks. I reckon Big Dunc is looking to move the franchise down South so that he is under the same rules with the other teams.
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Post by clintonh on Jul 25, 2021 17:28:11 GMT
Raiders in this form is as good as dead!! I think too much has been said. Both sides are to blame in some capacity and it doesn't look like its repairable. I don't think the raiders brand is dead. There's to much of a fan base and want for a team for there to be no raiders. We simply do not have a venue that could hold 500 fans this side of Exeter. I honestly see raiders appearing in an alternative form and I'd hope that this will kick the council into looking at an alternative venue that will allow the raiders to return in 5 years to being a big bbl club!! What does annoy me is when I go on holiday to butlins and within a year they build a massive concert hall in response to having limited capacity due to covid. Would be very easy for raiders and pcc to replicate it as a temporary 5 year venue until you can find something permanent. Or just convert a current unit so many big outlets in the plymourh area have gone over the past 5 years!! With parking in out of town locations that would require semi significant renovation costs (which should be short change to Mr Turkish billionaire)!! I was in the line for Burger King inside the skyline at Butlins when I found out about all this. Now forever an unhappy place. I do agree something like Studio 36 would be perfect. Maybe plonk it where the old western national bus depot was, by Laira Bridge. Probably not great for parking but neither was Pavilions. Maybe do a deal with Go Outdoors and the gym to use theirs?! |
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Post by reallyoldfeenixfan on Jul 25, 2021 18:07:51 GMT
It does seem like this situation highlights the problem of finding somewhere to play. You would hope that there would be a way of converting an empty building to provide a temporary entertainment venue that could be adapted for basketball.
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Post by borthwick on Jul 25, 2021 18:23:56 GMT
So after 9 pages of what's happening at Raiders we can conclude no one has a clue .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 18:46:41 GMT
i did drop a hint in my first post of the day (near the top of P8) but then rhe board expert took over.
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